Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

So I was watching the you tube videos graciously provided by the Wind Song team and I found a topic I would like to start a conversation on.

Shomen Ate and the kata form.


Nick's 17 series is great viewing. The thing I dig about the 17 series is it shows the form presented in damn near every balance break and timing. However he makes one claim I would like to discuss. The middle of the road form of shomen ate being a complete 180 turn around of uke. I feel like this is a go-no-sen/ ato-no-sen expression of timing and initiative.

In order for it to fall into the the realm of what I consider middle of the road - it should fall into the sen-no-sen initiative.


I tend to see this technique in the footwork of uke.

If uke attacks and you connect into shomen ate before the front foot of uke hits the floor, you are sen-sen-no-sen timing.

If uke attacks and his front foot hits the floor as shomen ate happens - likely you are moving at sen-no-sen timing. This is the expression of the technique we typically see in classic Tomiki Ryu and Fugakukai throught the 1990s.

If the front weight loads on the front foot of uke and release the back foot to pivot, we are now seeing a go-no-sen/ato-no-sen expression of shomen ate. I believe this is the form that Nick currently teaches as the middle of the road, but it seems like it is swerving heavy to the late side of the road to me.


Another thought I was having on how we approach the teaching of the technique.....


I was watching, again, You Tube (I am a junky) Nick was demoing multiple attack defense. He threw shomen ate many times through the film. The expression of the technique over and over again was simply a hand coming up to the face of uke to create a very direct connection. I assert this is the most useful form of the technique. It doesn't get much simpler. This is the Sen-sen-no-sen expression of initiative. If this is the easiest, most direct and effective expression of the technique, shouldn't we consider it for the standard student form?


A liberal translation of Shomen Ate might be - FRONTAL ASSAULT!!!!

I have noticed every time I try to generalize the techniques in the 17 kata there is always one of two movements that break the generalized idea I see. Perhaps shomen ate is a violation of the generalized principles we see expressed in the kata. While many of the techniques break off the line, make circles or blend...maybe this is the frontal assault. This is the 3 move chess game technique, the storming of Normandy technique, the stealing the attack from the attacker technique.

Frontal Assault!!!!!


Tag, your it.

Interesting observations Eric. Sometimes I wonder why I check the forum before bedtime. You're going to cause insomnia man!

One way I have been looking at things lately is the ukemi involved, how uke lands, and ultimately how he got there rotation-wise. Shomen-ate has a huge range for uke's fall (always a back fall). He could be thrown back from whence he came (call it 0 degrees; sen-sen-no-sen application as Eric describes) to uke facing the complete opposite direction (180 degrees; go-no-sen application as Eric describes). The sen-no-sen form you describe is how I learned it, which results in uke falling somewhere along the lines of 45 degrees from his original path of travel -- along a line perpendicular to the balls of uke's feet.

For me, my goal is to have my feet hit at the same time (be in rhythm, in sync.... it's a Judo thing 😉 ) with uke. My hand should contact uke at the same time my foot touches the floor.

As of late, everything has been relating to Judo terminology for me. This initial meeting of energy, to me, is very much like uki-otoshi from Judo. A slight extension down the line of uke's foot (that just tried to push my face in) leading us to the otoshi fall. The slight extension... the kuzushi that provokes uke's second foot to launch into a catastrophic chain-reaction event which gives us the shot for shomen-ate.

I'll have to play some more with this Thursday night.

I tend to see the difference in uke's direction of fall to be a result of uke's style of attack and reaction. If you have a solid footed puncher, they are going to react to the kuzushi by reflexing back, setting up the ato-no-sen shomen ate. This was the assumption for the classical through 1990's style. The problem was that if your attacker continued moving, you were reacting with a reversal of your own direction, so an aikido movement by the attacker, flowing with the off-balance, would eat your lunch. That was the rationale for the change. Also, it trained the attacker to keep moving, to react aikido style rather than to stop and reflex backwards.

Shomen ate as a direct frontal assault, very much an ikkyo to the face, taking center, has always been at the heart of the technique. This is taught as the third part of the formal kata, under the principle that you can truncate parts of the movement (eg, kuzushi, tsukuri) if you find yourself at a later part of the throw (eg, kake). The idea is that you can't instantly extrapolate movements you haven't practiced, but you can skip pieces.

Connecting with shomen ate at sen-sen-no-sen, if I am understanding, is a truncating of the technique. I mean that in a good way, in fact, it is one of my favorite methods. It crumples uke backwards as his lower half collapses into his step. It seems to beg for kiai, which intensifies the kime. It is an ultimate evolution, and simplification, of the waza. But I don't know if it should be taught that way as kihon.

I do think that each of the 17 kata are templates that contain a broad category of related waza, and I teach them that way. How many ways can you perform udehineri? Gedan ate? Kotehineri? The idea for a standard form should be to practice something that provides all the elements for a wide range of waza that share certain morphological principles. Of course, frontal assault is pretty good morphological principle...! 🙂

This is an interesting topic to me, mostly because the concept of "sen sen no sen, etc" is relatively new to me (believe it or not). As I thought about it, and tried to wrap my mind around the concept, I started to wonder... could you also look at the three different levels of initiative in terms of maai?

In other words, with go no sen, the "late, reactive" form would be something we do when uke is well inside of maai (as in some techniques from owaza ju pon) with a sort of "oh, crap!" approach; sen would be the moment maai is breeched, even possibly by both at the same time (say, by doing the 17 with both partners approaching each other from a few steps away); and sen sen no sen would fall into a situation where uke has committed forward, but barely, and has yet to break maai (the second technique from the knife section of san kata comes to mind).

I was just curious if I was anywhere in the ballpark, here, or if I totally missed the mark? 😄 Carry on!

You got it. Sen-sen no sen is even before uke starts to really attack, pre-empting it when uke makes a preparatory movement (pulling back a fist, shifting weight), or triggered by seeing the decision in his eyes. So it may be before any commitment of movement starts, and has the feeling of You invading His space.

The interesting part (psychologically and mechanically) is how this differs from you initiating an attack, thus becoming vulnerable. You have to sense when there is suki (opening) in the attacker that invites/demands response but also makes uke momentarily unable to react.

From Kenji Tomiki's own words and edited by my blog


Three kinds of sen

http://tomikiaikido.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... f-sen.html

I also found this film that deals with Shomen Ate at differing timings. This guy has thought of it all. 😉