Judo and Aikido line
For those of you who have been doing Judo and Aikido for a long time, even though you study them as separate arts, would you say there is a point where there is no longer a line of distinction and you're really just studying different aspect of the same thing?
I know those who just study one or the other can only relate to a self defense situation with just that art, but is there a point when what you are doing really becomes what I would call "AikiJudo"? Is this what you'd call it? Or maybe something more akin to Aiki Jujutsu?
I wouldn't think that if caught in a self defense situation you'd really only do one or the other, but a combination of the 2. Who would have a mindset....I'm going to defend myself with just Aikido...or I'm going to only do Judo if they had studied both? You wouldn't. When is the line no longer there for you?
John Winter wrote:For those of you who have been doing Judo and Aikido for a long time, even though you study them as separate arts, would you say there is a point where there is no longer a line of distinction and you're really just studying different aspect of the same thing?
I would say at some point, the arts become so thoroughly integrated into the subconscious that the lines tend to disappear. This is especially true with Aikido & Judo as we teach them -- they are redirect uke's energy into a condition of off-balance in order to lead to a position of control. Additionally I believe that Tomiki's background in Judo definitely influenced his approach to Aikido, so they are very similar.
As I have no background in the striking arts, I'm not sure how a force-meets-force art (such as karate) would integrate with force-joins-force (like Judo) or force-avoids-force (like Aikido). Other folks would have to provide some insight.
John Winter wrote:I know those who just study one or the other can only relate to a self defense situation with just that art, but is there a point when what you are doing really becomes what I would call "AikiJudo"? Is this what you'd call it? Or maybe something more akin to Aiki Jujutsu?
Philosophically, the "-do" arts are confined to the dojo where there's a sense of goodwill toward your fellow man. In the street, in a violent confrontation, everything becomes "-jutsu" as it's real-world, life and death stuff. So, I'd say Aiki-jujitsu would probably be correct. Of course, as J.W. Bode says, my opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
John Winter wrote:I wouldn't think that if caught in a self defense situation you'd really only do one or the other, but a combination of the 2. Who would have a mindset....I'm going to defend myself with just Aikido...or I'm going to only do Judo if they had studied both? You wouldn't. When is the line no longer there for you?
Whatever comes out of my subconscious is what comes out. It might be Aikido, it might be Judo. It might be an Aikido technique in the beginning with a Judo technique at the end. Totally unpredictable.
In a real self-defense situation, you want to keep the conscious head out of things. "I want to do this technique" type behavior will end up getting you seriously injured. A purely reactive mindset, watch the eyes, utilizing peripheral vision (i.e., gazing at the distance mountains, an unfocused all-seeing focus with the eyes). In a real-world self-defense situation, a true violent encounter, my only mindset is to survive.
I don't drink coffee...but respect your opinion. :O)
I like what Kyle said. I tend to think of it more as a distance question. Aikido is more effective at maai distance and a little inside maai. Judo will take over once maai has been broken and the guy is on top of me. When I'm doing randori in Aikido and that distance has collapsed a Judo throw naturally gets loaded. I didn't plan or consciously say I'm going to do a Judo throw, it was just a built in reflex. I stop myself from executing the throw, but it is there and ready to go.
But what you describe to me is Aiki-Judo. Your knowledge in Judo fills in the gaps where the Aikido fails such as when your attacker makes it past ma-ai and you naturally do it. Do you feel that you are studying each as a separate entity or are they just extensions or each other? This is my limited view on it because I too find myself resorting to Judo when my Aikido fails. I am starting to view my Tues and Thurs Aikido and Judo classes as one big class with a break in the middle..."O) Sort of how we do nage waza in Judo then go to ne waza or whatever...it's all part of a whole to me...or it's becoming that way. I'm glad to have all of you to instruct me on my journey. Thank you.
Derek Hall wrote:Do you feel that you are studying each as a separate entity or are they just extensions or each other?
Trick question -- yes to both questions. I believe that Aikido and Judo are extensions of each other, but I do try to study them individually. Judo will tend to hamper your Aikido practice and Aikido will tend to hamper your Judo practice. I think of Aikido as my first line of defense, if that fails Judo kicks in and saves the day.
It's an interesting topic, really, one that I've been mulling over for some time.
They have similarities, but they have differences, too, so I think for the most part, it's best to study them separately. The best way I can think of it is like when I went to college to study how to be a graphic designer: in one class I studied typography and all it's many facets and rules; in other, color theory; in another, how to use the software. Now, in my job, I use these skills interchangeably, whenever the need arises.
Over time, I've felt myself doing one or the other without thought, which is interesting. For instance, in aikido, I might be in the position of doing aiki nage/irimi nage, and find my legs want to do osoto gari or kosoto gari all by themselves! The other day in aikido, I was doing what was more or less shome ate as we do it in the 17, and my foot shot out and caught kouchi gari at the same time without me telling it to. I could go on... (Aikido, by the way, at least as many other schools and styles practice it, also includes some koshi waza/hip throw ideas, so the line gets even grayer!)
There are also moments in aikido where we're not at the optimal "arms length" maai distance, but we can still do aikido without HAVING to resort to judo (although we certainly CAN), like gedan ate, mae otoshi, irimi nage, and some of the more particular attacks in higher kata, so to me the issue isn't exactly distance. But aikido focuses a lot on getting behind one of uke's arms to get off his line of attack (so his weapons aren't pointed at me), but when I'm NOT outside his arms (he can reach me with both arms, his legs), then judo tends to present itself (joining his center instead of trying to avoid it).
Conversely, I've found aikido things like gedan ate wanting to crop up at times in judo, etc, but overall it seems a little harder for aikido to slip into judo because we typically have two points of connection instead of one (as well as being closer points), which keep me from getting behind uke's arm as a lot of aikido techniques do. Still, as Pat and Kyle have been talking about, shizumi otoshi (last of the Big Ten) and other duck down and block the leg ideas have some similar feel to kata guruma, and I'm sure there's more examples out there.
Mostly, I think it comes down to similarity of body positions, both with what I'm doing and my relationship to uke. When I'm doing irimi nage, well, my body position is a whole heckuva lot like it is when I practice osoto gari, so my body just sort of does both. Same with shomen ate (as it goes in the 17) and kouchi gari. I do kote gaeshi sometimes (or the guruma throws in the big ten) and realize, Hey, this position/movement feels a lot like hiza guruma, all I need to do is just stick a foot up there and...
It doesn't seem to be a conscious decision, really, not an "if I'm in this situation, I'll do this and if I'm this other situation, I'll do that" or "if one fails, I'll do the other." I would imagine that on the street, I'll want to use all my weapons at my disposal, hands, feet, hips, -- but only when the moment calls for it.
Personally, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be worth while to have a session --once in a great while --to get together a group who do both arts, and play around and experiment, and allow our subconscious minds to do their thing. (I don't think it would be kosher to pop an osoto gari on a person who just does aikido while in aikido class, after all).
Of course, that's just my thoughts/experience so far, and they may totally change by next week or even by the next person's response to this thread! 😄
I study them separately, think of them separately, but when doing randori -- I'm all about efficiency. Even if I am doing Aikido, like I did with JW this past week, Judo creeps in. When he and I were working, he would get me into positions that a nice Judo throw was the most efficient thing to do based on the circumstances. And he did them well. 🙁 I have a bad habit of sticking my foot in when doing Aikido kata, I don't mean to but it just jumps out. Even when I try to consciously think about not sticking a foot out, I still do it sometimes. For me, studying both and doing my best to keep both separate while studying them, has tended to lead into both filling in gaps of efficiency the other leaves out when doing randori. I would think in a 'go' time situation, I'm going to do whatever is the most productive and efficient in that situation.
Kyle Sloan wrote:
As I have no background in the striking arts, I'm not sure how a force-meets-force art (such as karate) would integrate with force-joins-force (like Judo) or force-avoids-force (like Aikido). Other folks would have to provide some insight.
Coming from a karate background, judo felt really strange when I first started. The only thing that seemed to directly integrate was the idea of generating power and balance from the center. The whole concept of feeling your opponent's balance and affecting their posture was new to me.
Avoidance of telegraphing has a totally different feel as well, even though both karate and judo require mechanically efficient movement. In karate this is achieved by using explosive movement from a neutral position without any preparatory actions. Contrast this to judo where the preparatory actions of kuzushi and tsukuri must be preformed before the explosive action of kake is used, and telegraphing is avoided by making these movements difficult to feel.
Another conceptual difference is that timing in karate is closely related to distance because a karateka constantly moves in and out of striking range. In judo, distance is a factor, but timing is more related to the rise and fall of uke's center. One may make a good argument that a karateka should judge their opponent's rise and fall to assist their timing as well, however movements in karate are generally performed ideally without any rise or fall.
One last thing that was pointed out to me by both Danny and Prentice: in judo you tend to get power by bringing your feet together rather than spreading your feet apart. Although I just previously wrote that most typical ideal karate movements don't have a rise or fall, when delivering a power punch (as opposed to a snap technique), you may drop your center to generate extra chi. Spreading your feet in judo does not provide extra power, and it seems to be a good way to get yourself thrown.
The more I think about, the more interesting this subject has become. It actually took me almost an hour to write this, and now my wife is telling me to go to bed.
Interesting discussions on blending arts and applying them in the world of unpredictabilty.MMA is now a growing martial art form whether we like or not and it is very effective for learning how one goes from aikido to judo to bjj to muy thai to boxing to karate....From my observations of countless fights you can get a superior stylist that if they know how to avoid the ground will do so and keep the fight standing where they have an advantage...Chuck Liddle,StPiere, Anderson Silva,Machita.Then there are others that predominate on the ground like the Gracies did in the beginning as do other styles of grappling and are very good with their take downs and submissions.Both Judo origianally called Kano jujitsu and Aikido originally from Daito Ryu aikijujitsu both have their roots in Jujitsu and have a line of consistency in principles that bring them together.
Stepping off the line, kuzushi,leverage,using the others momentum or power against them,spirals,circular energy,not meeting power with power,timing,all working in the shadow of uke's energy. Playing with randori and finding these places of principles and not dogma in a world of unpredictble circumstances will help make kaze Uta Budo Kai a real force to reckon with when the rubber hits the road.I believe that training separately will give one the appreciation for the uniqueness each art can exploit but that to make them connect it will require laying down some engrams of neural pathways of practice for muscle memory.Just my 2 cents for what it's worth....
That and a couple of bucks will get you on the subway in NYC!!!I remember when it was only 15 cents!!!!