Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Why are these called koryu? Koryu is typically defined as martial traditions coming from pre Meiji restoration (1868ish).

Why then are these kata, I believe developed in the 1960s and 70s called koryu?

I believe it they were using it as a general term, since the western explicit denotation wasn't developed (in hoplological circles) till probably after the katas themselves. Old stream. Also, I have heard many of the techniques are drawn pretty directly from Daito-ryu as transmitted to Tomiki.

I don't believe the 'koryu' phrase is a western invention. I have been to the koryu festivals in Tokyo on Bunka no Hi. I might be mistaken but it seems the Japanese started the idea.

The connection to Daito Ryu is interesting, and superficially I could buy it. Of course Tomiki was a Daito Ryu student and changed the name along with Ueshiba's frequent name changes. (though I read Tomiki did not adopt the aikido word until 1960)

Also I have read the jo work in the san kata is based on WWII bayonet training, martial thinking far past the koryu definition.

However...Wilkenson Sensei promotes that the Koryu kata take on a later Ueshiba/Tomiki research thought lines. I hesitate to try to paraphrase his feelings on the subject because he seems so passionate and knowledageable about the 'Koryu'. Hopefully he will pop in here and share his thoughts.

the language use does seem idiosyncrtatic -- i thought it was just a general demarkation -- since he was describing his sport oriented activity as "shin" aikido or new aikido, maybe he was using koryu as a term for "old" ( for all the stuff that didnt fit into the "new" sport paradigm)

Interesting the thinking of 'new aikido'. Especially interesting since many folks on the web equate the Tomiki stuff as having more of the Aikibudo or Daito Ryu flavor to it, the older stuff. What is new is old!

In the field of illusion and magic I have found there are almost no new tricks. The same fundamental principles keep getting reworked, renamed and repackaged. Probably the same with budo.

I see most art as reaching in two directions. First all art is inspired by art that came before it. But the second a person picks up the art it also starts morphing into something new. All art is a photograph of time moving from old to new.

Eric Pearson wrote:...I see most art as reaching in two directions. First all art is inspired by art that came before it. But the second a person picks up the art it also starts morphing into something new. All art is a photograph of time moving from old to new.

Interesting. I agree. We don't really do Tomikiryu - we really do watakushido - but we all are inspired to a large degree by Tomikiryu.

i think the mythic term "tomiki-ryu" probably originates in a Black Belt Magazine article in the 70's and is a markedly western invention -- over the years Tomiki himself referred to what he was up to as hamare judo, rikakutasei, shin aikido, aikido kyogi (fierce or sharp) , and lastly shodokan aikido -- he was a master technician and budo scholar whose ideas on teaching aikido revolutionize the art with a decidely modernist out look and so the effort to recast him as the head of a "ryu" is perhaps a bit silly--

Good Morning or "Ohio":

Quick comment here before hitting the water stone to sharpen my "business" katana.

I have read in some places and have generally understood that Tomiki adopted the term Ko-ryu or koryu for two basics;

(1) deference (as per much published material) to Kano's desire (not realized due to his death and later Kodokan politics) to re-insert the koryu concept back into Judo in order to partially reverse the over-stressing of shiai/competition. I seem to remember Chicori Kano over on the Judo discussion group having touched on that in the past,

(2) Tomiki was deshi to Ushiba when it was taught as pre-WW II Aikijutsu, then Ueshiba-ha Aikibudo then just plain Aikibudo (the names vary depending upon who is writing the history) but Tomiki was there pre-Aikido/pre WW II. According to Pranin was the word "Aikido" was largely a Tohei/Doshu invention. Pranin's articles on how little influence O-Sensei actually had on post WW II "Aikido" by that name (or what everyone todays understands that term to mean) are pretty controversial but also closely match what I was told by many of my early teachers back in the mid to late 70's and early 80's. I trained briefly in Shin-Shin Toitsu as part of Bill Sosa's group out of Dallas (he's now deceased) Sosa's people were highly complimentary of Ueshiba but not so of Tohei due to the changes Tohei was making so Sosa amongst other groups split from Tohei (this was late 70's and I was living in Austin, TX at the time training at the Riverside YMCA).

The idea here as I understand it was that Tomiki wanted to take the early materiel and codify much as Kano had done to close-in Judo while retaining "old style & pre WW II Aikibudo ne' Aikido" ideas and waza............. the development of sets of kata that clearly showed early aikijutsu waza when it was taught in a true koryu system. He ended up making 6 kata, each of which is a detailed exploration of the most critical areas of Aikido. One of my projects over the last 10 years has been to go back thru' these Tomiki koryu kata repeatedly and look for the hidden waza that the larger kata doesn't blatantly show but which is inside the paired techniques.

As a side note I have some DVD's of Japan based Daito Ryu groups demo'ing formal kata. One one DVD I was vaguely surprised to see them do what looked to be segments of what we know as Koryu Dai San Kata .......... not the whole thing mind you and not even big sections of San Kata but here and there there would 2 or 3 done in a row that looked amazingly like San Kata work ...... so it may be possible that Tomiki learned that material or some version of it and then retained parts as he and Ohba (I think Ohba primarily) developed the early JAA kata systems. Some of Mochizuki's early work before his death also greatly reflects much of this and again, resembles San and some of Roku material.

So I view the creation of the 6 koryu kata as a combination of homage to Kano's philosophical ideal of ko-ryu, documenting in the briefest but most efficient way possible the older waza that need to be understood but which are largely not suitable for high-speed randori application (except at the absolute highest ranks due to the dangerous nature) and lastly, to create a pathway by which we can "re-discover" waza Tomki left out but which are inside the system (e.g. a double grab from Ni Kata showing a branch-point into a single grab in Go Kata which also shows an entry into a hip-throw comparable to aiki-nage from the Big 10 (like an outside the arm, sambo souffle' throw) except uke rolls over the hip and falls into the mat face first (too dangerous for basic kata but still embedded into the system none-the-less.

Regarding the "Tomiki-Ryu" question .................. my first four certificates for Shodan thru' Yondan were all issued by Japan. In those days Geis was only Yondan, he had limited authority to promote and for dan ranks had to test here in Houston (it was pass-fail by the way), film it, issue a "Houston" paper, send the film to Japan and wait about 6 months for a courier to show up wiht your certificate.

My Shodan and Nidan from the mid-70's were signed by Tomiki and state "Certificate of Achievement-Aikido". My Sandan and Yondan were signed by Ohba (post Tomiki death) and are from the early 80's and clearly state Tomiki-Ryu Aikido. I was not told but always imagined that while it most totally is NOT acceptable to name an art after yourself while you are alive it CAN be acceptable for your successors to name it after you in homage to your unique contributions to the further growth and development of the art leading to my supposition that Ohba and Miyake/Inoue/Kogure/Sumiko Tomiki (wife name?)/Tomiki's daughter thought it appropriate at the time.

I would further advance the idea that after Ohba died and Miyake and Inoue had severed relations with Japan Aikido Association and Nariyama took over with Kogure's help that some level of decision was made to change the direction of the JAA both in name and training drive, today resulting in radically different Tanto/Toshu Shiai and the efforts to make it a demonstration event in the Olympics (like the same drive now on for Japan vs. Korea/kendo vs. kumdo) and the name of the art form changing to "Shodokan Aikido". In this way with the "old-bulls" dead the "young turks" could take over and "make their mark".

That's my 2 centavos so if anybody has a different take from old conversations with some Aikido/Judo "moss-backs" who knew Tomiki/Miki and all that crowd I'd be interested in hearing. So far Stanley Pranin and Chicorei Kano have been great sources for tracking some of this material and confirming gossipy mat conversations I heard 30-40 years ago so I'd recommend them for anybody interested.

I've had great comments from some of my people who have attended OKC events about the quality and just "fun-times" up there in Antartica (Houston is much warmer than Oklahoma lately) and Lynn and I still plan on trying to get up when things slow down. Everyone in Nick's bunch is welcome to attend any of our events and if you're in town call and whisper into the phone "Nick sent me" and come on over.

L.F. Wilkinson (finally thawing out for winter) - Houston

beautiful post LF -- thanks for all the great info-- love the connection to Kano's move toward koryu in is later life

to follow up:
so if the diplomas you recieved for sandan and yondan were processed the same way as the earlier ones for shodan and nidan then it seems clear that the "Tomiki-ryu" name came from Obha and Japan --
Do you recall if they took as long to process and recieve?
My thinking is this: That if the diplomas originated in the US and then flew back an forth for Obha's signatures and seal (or more likely were presigned and stamped for convienence) then its still possible that the name was a american marketing idea and had no official staus with the japanese crowd -- not sayin its so, just wondering -- I know a good bit of the JAA world finds the Tomiki-ryu name a bit "off" and have noted at least once that it only seems to get used in the US-- I should probably ask Yoji Kondo what he remebers since he co-authored the article i mentioned before-- food for thought

Great post Wilkenson Sensei. Really interesting tidbits. I had a lovely dinner with your students. They had many great things to say about you and your program.


Going back to the koryu naming thing, Daito Ryu really is barely a koryu. The Koryu society in Japan barely let them in from what I heard, because really Daito Ryu started as a name after the Meiji Restoration. It appears some of the history that I have even written about before, may be false. I am currently under a Daito fact checking mission.

I have been reading more about the formation of Daito Ryu, and it seems even more fragmented and strange than I ever thought it could be. Much of it has turned into myth and legend. I think Sokaku Takeda likely had many social issues.

Hi Guys:

Need to figure out how to have posts from this forum forwarded so I don't have to keep checking back 2-3 times a day. Just completed lunch and stopped and found your comments.

I really do not know about the directional "flow" of the paper. I always labored ("ukemi'd") under the assumption (possibly wrong) that Geis promoted here and issued a certificate on the spot and then sent everything to Japan for final approval and only then did the Japan certificate show up. For Shodan/Nidan both Tomiki and Geis sealed it and for Sandan/Yondan Ohba and Geis sealed it so I don't know if Karl signed it and sent it to Japan for sealing and then it came back or if Karl signed it after it showed up. I don't remember how long any of it took either before or after Tomiki's death as I was a pretty young player focused on keeping my head down and flying under the radar. I tried to pick up as much gossip and innuendo as possible but preferred to not ask too many questions of the wrong people.

Some of this didn't last very long after I started with him in the 70's. I don't remember much filming of tests (esp. after I moved to Houston in 79/80' and began full time with him) although required testing continued long after that before being stopped at some point in the 90's. So the filming of tests may have been a hold-over from Kogure's stint in Houston as Kogure was transferred out by his company about 6 months before I first met Karl.

Testing at his dojo stopped for Houston people about 1990???? but for the seminars has always continued but it eventually came to lack the same "feel" or "seriousness" it once held, and to me and other became largely ceremonial.

I don't know if you remember but a lot of this was also around the time of the Geis vs. USJA/JF/Judo, Inc. lawsuits and the brief existence of the USJII (United State Judo Instructors Institute) and the USAII (United State Aikido Instructors Institure). After the closure of whatever litigation was on-going those two groups went away. Tomiki of course died in 79' (I think) and the split occured so somewhere in there all the paper trail 'tween here and Waseda stopped, the Fugakukai kicked off in a serious fashion, Miki came (and stayed), Inoue came (and left and is now teaching again in England last I heard). There was a lot of turmoil, esp after Karl split his gi-pants with Inoue so some of what every thinks they saw may have been misinterpreted or only comprehended much later.

As you say Yoji may know more since he was there at the time but like so many others had "unpleasantness" surrounding his departure from the "Geis-Fold" so-to-speak and may not remember much of value because of the turmoil (but it's worth asking).

Eric, thanks for the input on koryu and let us know what you find. I think I've just quit thinking about koryu as only pre-meiji MA and now from a personal standpioint I mostly consider it a MA mostly based on old forms, with a reasonable established history and pedigree, that focuses on Kano's and Tomiki's philosophical precepts but with a slight "edgy-ness" to it as it retains a non-sports/self-defense efficacy. I am finding so many people lay claim to koryu that is is rapidly losing any meaning at all.

Back to work.

L.F.

Tomiki of course died in 79' (I think) and the split occured so somewhere in there all the paper trail 'tween here and Waseda stopped, the Fugakukai kicked off in a serious fashion, Miki came (and stayed), Inoue came (and left and is now teaching again in England last I heard). There was a lot of turmoil, esp after Karl split his gi-pants with Inoue so some of what every thinks they saw may have been misinterpreted or only comprehended much later.

Mister Tomiki died in December 1978 right before he was to be at a clinic in Houston. That was my first clinic.

December 25, 1979 was the day I see written everywhere that Kenji Tomiki went to the great dojo in the sky.

nick lowry wrote:i think the mythic term "tomiki-ryu" probably originates in a Black Belt Magazine article in the 70's and is a markedly western invention -- over the years Tomiki himself referred to what he was up to as hamare judo, rikakutasei, shin aikido, aikido kyogi (fierce or sharp) , and lastly shodokan aikido -- he was a master technician and budo scholar whose ideas on teaching aikido revolutionize the art with a decidely modernist out look and so the effort to recast him as the head of a "ryu" is perhaps a bit silly--

cool historical article fron the early 80's, using the term, "Tomikiryu." In the pictures, who is the young man that is uke?

http://books.google.com/books?id=2dIDAA ... yu&f=false

Also, same magazine, the term "Tomikiryu" used in an advert for Higashi's materials, suggesting that it might not be a western invention?


http://books.google.com/books?id=QNADAA ... yu&f=false

Yes Pat -- interesting --i'd missed Higashi's usage-- i will hit Yoji up about it next time we visit-- i dont know for sure (maybe one of the other ole timers can pin it down) but i suspect the uke in those photos was Kenny Levin --

Here is Yoji's words on the matter (at one point i referred to our "style" of aikido which he also corrected) :

Hello, Nick!

Master Tomiki preferred not to refer to the training system he
developed as Tomiki-ryu. He would ask "Would you call judo Kano-ryu
Judo?" He wanted me to refer to it simply as aikido. I do refer to
Master Tomiki's training system. I'd NOT call it a style. If someone
likes good styles, I think River Dance might be a good place to start.
If someone wanted to know what style of aikido we practiced, I would not
tell him/her to go fly a kite but patiently explain to him that this is
a martial art and we are not particularly concerned with styles as in
dancing...

If we used the term Tomiki-ryu some years ago, I must have used the word
"ryu" in a most general sense, a system of training, which is used in
kendo, ikebana and other artistic undertakings. Now that I know Master
Tomiki's wishes, I would not call it his ryu.

Happy Fourth of July to you!
Yoji Kondo

Hi All from the Uk

As koryu katas have been mentioned here I thought I would ask the question; Is there a link between the kata's apart from numerical sequence. Or did one kata develop on from the previous one. Does the dai ichi introduce some of the techniques and the dai ni develop ideas and movement from them? In the Uk the dai yon is introduce quite early into the syllabus and it seems to be a big problem for many students as they don't understand the lines of kuzushi, so its performed pretty badly.

If they do follow a sequence, why do we teach them in a different order. I'd prefer to teach them in order.
Thanks guys, its great to be part of KUBK

Hi Mark -- I certainly have no definitive answer on the historical development -- I suspect that there was some historical linearity going along with the names but i have heard a few points that contradict that idea -- namely that Mr Tomiki's own work is mostly in Dai San and that it was the first "root" form that all the rest grew up from (personally i think of Dai San an Dai Yon as both pretty central and the rest as more peripheral but whether that indicates that these were truly earlier or not is unknown to me-- i asked Shaun Hoddy once aout this an he said he would as Dr. Loi about it but have never heard back ) -- I can say for sure that there is certainly alot of repetition and variation on the theme going on in the koryu sets and -- parallel forms and functions are a notable feature of the whole body of the work--

Working up Dai Yon without prior engagement with the same ideas and forms as kuzushi and musubi applications as we have with "the eight releases" is in my mind like teaching someone to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool and watching them thrash-- some learn quick other just tread water and some just sink

Thanks Nick,
I'll probably see Loi next month so I'll try and ask her. I think I,ve heard her say that the sword side was down to Hideo Oba and his kendo back ground showing.

Mark