Strong ukes
I was working with a white belt the other day on the #1 release and when he would attack me his arm was so stiff that I could not do the standard release which was more towards/just to the side of him. Instead, when I felt that stiff arm I changed the angle of my step, off and more out to the side of him avoiding the stiffness of his attack altogether. This also got me thinking of what Greg and I were messing with a bit when we were talking about a resisting uke and the posts of the shodan on judoinfo. I explained to my uke that Aikido is not "doing" something but flowing with. I said he shouldn't get fixated on a technique. I demonstrated this to him by holding him as he attacked me in that tensed state for a moment and then I just relaxed my arm. It turned into what was really a #2 like release and of course this had a great affect on his kuzushi.
Now my question is, was my timing off as he grabbed me, making me have to change the release? I was sort of under the understanding that no matter how strong uke was the releases worked if your timing was correct. I didn't want my uke to feel that the release wouldn't work if the attacker was really strong.
It happens in Aikido & Judo both. We seem to program ourselves with non-resistive folks. Non-resistance creates the purest transmission of information; i.e. no static from outside influences to dirty up the signal. This non-resistive picture is the norm for us. It works exceptionally well.
Now, when folks are being strong (whether Aikido or Judo) we have to adapt and yield to the energy they are putting into the relationship. Often, we try going to our pre-programmed spot and things don't work so well.
John brings up a great Aikido example. For Judo, our standard form of osoto-gari comes to mind. With a resistive player, the line of the feet is the same but the distance between our two centers is greater due to the stiffness and extra energy we must yield to.
Additionally, we must also strive to be in step with our partner. With people who are comparable height & weight, it isn't as big a factor. But, if you latch on to a 250 pound guy as a 200 pound guy, you had best time yourself to him if you want to succeed.
As an answer to your question John, I suspect you could have executed the standard release. However, your foot position would likely need to be further out as I discussed with osoto-gari above. Incidentally, the initial foot position for #1 release and osoto-gari is practically identical.
That actually was my first reaction when I felt it...I just went out further to the side to compensate for the strength.
Now, the version I did that started as #1 but turned into the #2 was when I was explaining to him not to get fixated on "doing" something...i.e. I'm going to do the #1 release but when I felt his strength I bailed off of it and went with the energy instead of trying to push past it. From your response, I was basically correct in my reaction although I am with you....my technique can always use tweaking.
Thanks Kyle,
Glad it makes sense. I always worry about trying to explain things that are really a "feel deal" via writing.
Each of us keep showing up to practice to improve our technique. You're not alone.
One thing I sometimes forget to consider, which can come up when uke gives us an attack that takes us off guard (be it a stiff arm or whatever), is that in order for me to practice doing a specific technique in kata, I need uke to attack in a certain way to prompt that response. We get stuck when we think, I'm doing Technique A, and uke is going to give me that attack--but then he really gives us something totally different (often because they're new).
We think we're doing the technique "wrong" but really we tried to do A while uke was unwittingly doing B (or C or Q...) because we're trying to do a choreographed dance, kata, and both of us have to know our parts (and new folks just don't).
For a side note, as a general rule (which can always be broken!) I find that for stiff arms, or where it seems like his weight is baring down, then #2 and #4 tend to be the response we would make if it were randori (where nothing was pre-determined) and we flowed with the energy subconsciously. #1 and #3 tend to come as a reaction to more of a "snatching" or almost "pulling" grab and we go forward (and off to the side) with it.
Now, all that being said, just because we practice, say, the #1 release, going to the same angle every single time doesn't means that that's the ONLY angle we can go. We're just practicing the middle of the road that should, in the end, give us the other ends of the spectrum as well.
For example, if uke is really snatching hard, you might end up cutting a very tight forward angle and end up pushing his arm into his ear as in yon kata. Or you can do the #1 release slightly ahead of uke's timing and actually do the release just BEFORE he locks on and you end up with a grip on HIM first! Or you can keep your feet planted and go up and down and turn with your center only. Or you can turn in a tenkan step around him and do a palm up form of the #1 release. Or you can even take a step backward (which you might have to do if a guy is really baring down on you) and still do the #1 release.... Well, you get the idea...
In other words, what I almost always find is that I'm not wrong, uke's not wrong, we're probably just on different wave lengths, trying to do different things (especially when it come to teaching new folks kata). Also, the paradigm is often much bigger than I imagine!
We think we're doing the technique "wrong" but really we tried to do A while uke was unwittingly doing B (or C or Q...) because we're trying to do a choreographed dance, kata, and both of us have to know our parts (and new folks just don't).
I agree.... it sounds like to me that uke is giving you motion and energy consistent w/ a #2 release but your trying to do a #1. So, by failure/default you ended up doing a #2 anyway....
Sean Ashby wrote:Now, all that being said, just because we practice, say, the #1 release, going to the same angle every single time doesn't means that that's the ONLY angle we can go. We're just practicing the middle of the road that should, in the end, give us the other ends of the spectrum as well.
For example, if uke is really snatching hard, you might end up cutting a very tight forward angle and end up pushing his arm into his ear as in yon kata. Or you can do the #1 release slightly ahead of uke's timing and actually do the release just BEFORE he locks on and you end up with a grip on HIM first! Or you can keep your feet planted and go up and down and turn with your center only. Or you can turn in a tenkan step around him and do a palm up form of the #1 release. Or you can even take a step backward (which you might have to do if a guy is really baring down on you) and still do the #1 release.... Well, you get the idea...
This is my experience too. With a strong/stiff attack, you have to yield a little before doing #1 release. The feeling is like the first movement of yon kata in the style were you drop slightly to disperse the power and then follow the reaction into the release. Stepping back and cycling forward works too.
Jim Ellison shihan had a brilliant lesson on Tuesday during Shochugeiko, where tori either cocks or curls the wrist and makes a small random movement JUST at the moment of connection, and it devastates uke's power. It might be worth asking him for some ideas and practice on this.
Something that worked for me, and I won't go into too much detail...but when someone big and strong grabs your wrist and locks down...looking them in the eyes and talking---in a rather rude manner---seems to work wonders as you move your feet. Don't know what technique I used, maybe crazy white guy?? But it worked!
James Bedwell wrote:We think we're doing the technique "wrong" but really we tried to do A while uke was unwittingly doing B (or C or Q...) because we're trying to do a choreographed dance, kata, and both of us have to know our parts (and new folks just don't).
I agree.... it sounds like to me that uke is giving you motion and energy consistent w/ a #2 release but your trying to do a #1. So, by failure/default you ended up doing a #2 anyway....
Yep, I would do #2 because self-defense wise...that is the correct response for his incorrect attack. As for what we were learning...that was the incorrect response for what should have been a correct attack for the lesson but was not....that confuses even me reading it...LOL 😀
Jack Bieler wrote:Sean Ashby wrote:Now, all that being said, just because we practice, say, the #1 release, going to the same angle every single time doesn't means that that's the ONLY angle we can go. We're just practicing the middle of the road that should, in the end, give us the other ends of the spectrum as well.
For example, if uke is really snatching hard, you might end up cutting a very tight forward angle and end up pushing his arm into his ear as in yon kata. Or you can do the #1 release slightly ahead of uke's timing and actually do the release just BEFORE he locks on and you end up with a grip on HIM first! Or you can keep your feet planted and go up and down and turn with your center only. Or you can turn in a tenkan step around him and do a palm up form of the #1 release. Or you can even take a step backward (which you might have to do if a guy is really baring down on you) and still do the #1 release.... Well, you get the idea...
This is my experience too. With a strong/stiff attack, you have to yield a little before doing #1 release. The feeling is like the first movement of yon kata in the style were you drop slightly to disperse the power and then follow the reaction into the release. Stepping back and cycling forward works too.
Jim Ellison shihan had a brilliant lesson on Tuesday during Shochugeiko, where tori either cocks or curls the wrist and makes a small random movement JUST at the moment of connection, and it devastates uke's power. It might be worth asking him for some ideas and practice on this.
That was my alternate means of dealing with it...as was changing my angle out farther. I tried different things...but I had to think about it to keep from naturally doing a #2 release, because that's what I felt... 😛
Damon Kornele wrote:Something that worked for me, and I won't go into too much detail...but when someone big and strong grabs your wrist and locks down...looking them in the eyes and talking---in a rather rude manner---seems to work wonders as you move your feet. Don't know what technique I used, maybe crazy white guy?? But it worked!
I'd head butt you as a response to your rude look.... 😂
John Winter wrote:
That was my alternate means of dealing with it...as was changing my angle out farther. I tried different things...but I had to think about it to keep from naturally doing a #2 release, because that's what I felt... 😛
The only reason you wouldn't just do the #2 release with that attack would be if your wrist were constrained, e.g., held in a kotehineri style wrist lock. That's why we practice palm up / palm down, so we are conditioned to know which we can do or can't. So most of the time (no wristlock) there is no riai for insisting on #1.
Very good point Jack.... palm up and palm down starts to really starts to have meaning as you start to apply releases to rondori.
JW showed me a drill one time where you grab the other guys hands/wrists in any weird configuration that you want and then he has to figure out which release will get him out of it w/o using strength. Then when you get tied up weird in rondori you brain will know what release to do... palm up or down makes a huge difference in what will work..
Maybe JW can elaborate more on the drill, thats basically what I remember...