Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

I've been comparing presentations of migi-sumi-otoshi, and I'm in a state of some confusion.

Everybody seems to agree that tore's initial strike happens with LH and LF forward, while RF recovers and RH slides from the hip to the tantien.

In the photographic presentations in Higashi (1993) and Saunders (2003), uke begins in LH hanmi, takes a L corner step to grab the stick on the inside, and falls from their back (R) foot.

In Geis' 2005 video, uke begins in RH hanmi, takes a R diagonal step to grab the stick on the outside, and falls from their back (L) foot.

In Lowry's 2009 video (on this site), uke begins in a RH hanmi, takes a R diagonal step to grab the stick on the outside, and falls from their front (R) foot.

I'm sure there are good historical and geometrical arguments for each of these choices. Can anybody share the reason for their own current preference, so as to help me decide on mine?

For folks unfamiliar with this technique, it is the first of the offensive jo set from Koryu-Dai-San.

Video is here.

As uke, I tend to start in a neutral or right posture. I step in with the right hand & foot to grasp the jo. I tend to step straight in, not on any sort of diagonal or oblique angle.

As for the ukemi, since I end the grasp in a same hand/foot relationship, with my right foot advanced, I tend to fall from the right side. This provides a nice sumi-otoshi over the right heel, very much like this sumi-otoshi we work on in Judo to get footstrike timing.

Kyle Sloan wrote:I tend to step straight in, not on any sort of diagonal or oblique angle.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that ... it's a subtle angle to see on the video, even with several takes.

Does that mean you've given up the pretense that the jo is actually a spear, or does the straight step work out ok even when there's a sharp tip?

ive recently come to consider it more of a bayonette analog than a spear (there is actually a neat old video of ueshiba doing a weapons demo againts a bayonette that looks suspiciously like this section-- i think Tomiki /Oba must have been influenced by that routine when building this kata) -- as to which foot to throw from -- i like to throw from the foot that uke is commiting weight into (if the fella is getting ahold of your weapon and trying to rest it from you with a pulling action you are going to have a different dynamic than if he is aggressivly driving into (pushing) to get control-- and different yet if he is grasping semi passivly and just trying to resist being thrown altogeather -- mostly its important to follow the energy and apply kuzushi into extension to the rear corner using your center to deliver the energy -- once you have done that job uke will have to sort it out from there as to feet and results may vary--

You can think of it either as a jo or as a yari (spear). With my hands together on the weapon, they essentially form a triangle which is a pretty powerful position. Uke has to think about stopping the weapon, not taking it away or anything like that. The straight-on approach also demonstrates a linkage between the techniques more clearly to me as well.

If I am off the line, right foot forward, I am on tori's left. Tori's easiest throw would be down my left foot as a sumi-otoshi, but that's hidari-sumi-otoshi -- the 2nd technique.

We also see uke get progressively smarter, which also aids in linking techniques together in a series. Uke is prepared for the migi-sumi-otoshi and successfully stops it. But, this leaves him vulnerable to the other side.

Having seen both right and left forms of sumi-otoshi, uke now stops the jo in its tracks and ends up with the nice mawashi. He powers out of that to the next technique (reminds me of maki-otoshi in Jodo). So, it's an ever-increasing, more technical piece of work in my mind.

nick lowry wrote:ive recently come to consider it more of a bayonette analog than a spear (there is actually a neat old video of ueshiba doing a weapons demo againts a bayonette that looks suspiciously like this section-- i think Tomiki /Oba must have been influenced by that routine when building this kata) -- as to which foot to throw from -- i like to throw from the foot that uke is commiting weight into (if the fella is getting ahold of your weapon and trying to rest it from you with a pulling action you are going to have a different dynamic than if he is aggressivly driving into (pushing) to get control-- and different yet if he is grasping semi passivly and just trying to resist being thrown altogeather -- mostly its important to follow the energy and apply kuzushi into extension to the rear corner using your center to deliver the energy -- once you have done that job uke will have to sort it out from there as to feet and results may vary--

I agree with Kyle, that it is easier to SEE and perform the linking from the straight on approach, and will be doing so for future formal kata presentations. However I still teach this with uke getting off the line of attack to one side of the stick though as this is what happens naturally when you try to skewer someone. (try it, it's fun to see the different but similar reactions.. to date though no one has tried the stand there stop the stick yet with me.)
Like nick Stated if you drop your weight into the foot they have their weight on and extend from there they can't step out.. and has been my main focal point so far as I reach to understand the different dynamics surrounding ukes possible responses.

Ikei,
Jeff