Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

When playing randori, my most successful techniques are the two inner thigh reaps, ko-ouchi gari and o-ouchi gari. I am constantly running into a dilemma with these throws however. Since I'm not playing shiai, I do not keep uke's leg trapped and dive on top of him during the fall. Instead, after uke is past the point of no return, I just let him fall and try not to step on him. This lack of aggressiveness creates a huge counter throw opportunity for uke because in both of these throws, my momentum is towards uke as he is falling away from me. This means that if uke is holding on to me, even if it is just because he is surprised to be falling backwards, I have a tendency to be pulled over him, and I have to jump over uke and do a forward roll or break fall.

Now, I appreciate that this is happening to me because anybody using these inner thigh reaps in randori (or shiai) needs experience in dealing with this vulnerability (it is also a fun ride). However, I am concerned that maybe I am missing an option. If I use these techniques in a street fight, do I need to commit to riding uke to the ground?

Ooh! great question. i too usually practice this way, throwing and letting them down nicely, and trying not to fall on them.

But it's valuable to practice going to the ground with them also, because they need to learn to take a breakfall while managing tori's descent too (getting one knee in or pinching knees together around uke's leg or hips to keep tori off of uke's nuts, being able to transition directly into groundwork from the bottom position, etc...)

I'd start building this skill by throwing and riding them partway down into a crashpad, reinforcing the ways for uke to mediate tori's descent. throw this way on a crashpad for a long time before working it on the mat, and do that on the mat for a long time before doing it in randori.

and then there is your question - do you ride them down in the street or do you throw-and-go?

Thanks for the reply Patrick. I love an excuse to get out the crash pads.

Also, I found a video that talks about transitioning to ne-waza after throwing o-ouchi gari. In this example, tori releases uke's leg from the reap, but then tori shoots his knee past uke's hip (opposite side of reaped leg) so that when they hit the ground, tori is already passing uke's guard.

In the video,tori is being nice, but I imagine he could still land directly on top of uke while pulling up his knee. It still seems like there is still some danger of a counter throw if you release the hook on the reaped leg before uke hits the ground, but if you don't release the hook then you basically land in their guard (or at least half guard).

The transition to ne-waza begins at 1:22.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLcbT-lJ ... _embedded#!

Karl Wenzel wrote:Now, I appreciate that this is happening to me because anybody using these inner thigh reaps in randori (or shiai) needs experience in dealing with this vulnerability (it is also a fun ride). However, I am concerned that maybe I am missing an option. If I use these techniques in a street fight, do I need to commit to riding uke to the ground?

I'm not sure I'd eagerly follow somebody down in a street fight. I'd rather stay on my feet and worry about things like other people attacking me as opposed to trying to grapple or submit somebody

You can't kick a person on the ground in shiai, but you can in a 'street fight'...

Kurt Nordstrom wrote:I'm not sure I'd eagerly follow somebody down in a street fight. I'd rather stay on my feet...

Yeah, that's a good point Kurt, however then I'm back to the problem with being counter thrown.

I did think of another option though. Usually if I get the timing right, I can tell if I got kuzushi by the look in uke's eyes as he realizes that he may be falling backwards. In a street fight, that is probably a good time to punch them in the face.

Karl, three thoughts.
Countering with O, and Ko; is excelent. Loose and lite will help develop both your timing and technic.
Personaly I can think of two things to try, If you are uncomfortable with newaza, or landing on uki. First make shure that you over exaggerate your motion, especially with your head. This way you will get credit for your counter. Secound, once you have kazushi, hesitate a moment. As uki attempts to regain his balance he will almost always over comit. Uchimata for ipon?
Third. In a fight, don't. But if you have too, bury your antagonist. The ground is the hardest thing you can hit a man with. Place your head on his upper chest on the way down, his body will stop befor yours. Making for a nasty head but. The average street punk, or the above average street punk, for that matter. Will not pull gard, and spin for an arm bar.
Thank you for your time. Anyway I have to go lick my wounds. Got beat up this morning!

David

Let me start off with this thought: virtually any time you are throwing, you can be counter thrown. The very process of falling affords a skilled player an opportunity to use the very act of falling to incorporate some form of sacrifice throw. It's a neat concept to play with.... hmm, maybe for class tonight, or in between classes if you remind me.

I've been told by Dr. Clif Norgaard that both ouchi-gari and kouchi-gari were jujitsu techniques designed to throw and cover an opponent. Interesting historical insight.

I would offer up to look at both ouchi-gari and kouchi-gari as footsweep type throws. The modern sport versions of both throws tend to use a "hook & drive" mentality -- hook uke's leg, the drive him back over it. It works, but it's not a very sophisticated idea. The footsweep idea should refine timing further. Also look at setups from different positions, especially using three feet on the line as we teach in hiza-guruma. This gets you out of the way. As uke steps, pull your hand to your shoulder to elongate uke's step and create kuzushi. From there, sweep the foot. With ouchi-gari, experiment with not inserting your leg quite as far -- again, more footsweep than an osoto-gari on the wrong side.

If you must apply the throws as a maki-komi, riding uke to the ground, there's something that needs tuning. Maki-komi is very common when there's too much energy being applied by tori. In shiai, it's quite common to throw with so much energy that maki-komi is virtually guaranteed. In randori, it might happen as a fluke every once in a while.

another solution is the "vaulting" form of these throws that i got working with Moose many many years ago-- easiest to see in kouchi as a sharp skip-in forward reap, just as his weight tries to settle in the target foot, both palms simultaneously pronating and both elbows locking into the ribs by contracting pecs and lats for a explosive rising- lateral vector on kake -- feels like being shot horizontally out of a cannon when its right-- defiantly and intermediate to advanced form for "special occasions"

ha, "special occasions" indeed. Sounds like kouchi plus shomenate
😈

indeed a short sharp shomenate paired to the forward entry reap action that hits em about the level of the solar plexus/elbows or so -- its the sort of thing the big splashy BLAM! or KA-POW! on the old batman show was made for

Thank you everybody for your input.

Kyle put together a lesson in judo tonight where we covered pretty much everything in this thread, and it was a lot of fun. Plus, at the end of class we finished with some randori, so I got a chance to try out some of this stuff with Damon, who gave me a lot of useful feedback.

When I got the throw to work, it seemed like the safest way to follow uke to the ground was to walk around him in the direction that he falls, so that you have the option of transitioning to a side hold. Also it seemed useful to keep my hips as low as possible after uke starts to fall. Despite this, I still flew over him once or twice, but overall I had better control going to the ground.