Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

When I first started learning aikido almost a year ago, I was concerned about aikido's effectiveness against karate. This is because most balance breaks require uke to commit momentum. However a good karateka would not commit their momentum to an attack, rather they would deliver the technique with balance and snap, so that their attack has speed and power, and so that they may safely recover their extended limb.

My thoughts on aikido have continued to evolve though. The other day I was talking to a karate black belt, and I summed up an aikido strategy vs. a karate player as "quickly shoving your hand in their face, and when they try to move it you break their arm". The karate guy accepted this as a valid strategy.

another strategy would be distance, if the karate guy offers no forward momentum, he limits his range. Once he's missed you a few times and the ego kicks in a bit, they might well over commit and you have your forward momentum. Plus you have the angles, which make them vulnerable whilst maintining their stance. Plus chase the retreating punch, thats always a good one.

I have found in my limited experience with karate players in our dojo, is that you have to really be carefull, there can be alot of tension in their punches which opens them up for injuries.

My main strategy is to move when they start their attack. Kicks especially require a weight shift, and they move quickly to commitment once started. Move off-line, enter and get your hands into their face. For punches, you don't have to do a classical straight-arm pushing off-balance; just a slap to the side of the forearm as you move off-line does a great job. You can usually step right behind them while deflecting the attack.

In boxing terms, an aikidoka is a pure counterpuncher.

Karl I cannot disagree with you more. You said a karate guy will never commit momentum. Please show me a video where a karate guy attacks without momentum.


mo·men·tum
 
1.
force or speed of movement; impetus, as of a physical object or course of events:
2.
Also called linear momentum. Mechanics . a quantity expressing the motion of a body or system, equal to the product of the mass of a body and its velocity, and for a system equal to the vector sum of the products of mass and velocity of each particle in the system.



Plus balance breaks only require an opponent has balance. Momentum just makes it a little easier.

Eric, notice how Chuck Norris is able to kick two ninja without even slightly shifting his center of gravity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rooXGLpcq40....

OK, to be a little more serious: what you say is 100% true. You cannot move close enough to hit somebody without moving towards them, and thus you have "committed momentum". Most of the other strategies posted so far take advantage of this.

On the other hand, if a senior ranking karate player is trying to strike you, trying to do a balance break technique on his/her strike could put you in a high-risk situation.

I should have been more clear about "committing momentum". Instead of the linear momentum of closing distance, I was talking about the momentum from the strike itself, where the striker *should* be requiring a net momentum of zero (unless you count rotational momentum).

With this distinction made, you probably understand what I am talking about. I couldn't easily find a video that demonstrated it, so I recorded a couple to demonstrate.

Hmm.. this forum does not allow me to upload files with the extension of .wmv... Never mind about the video.

Perhaps let me define momentum in my view - movement

All attacks must have movement. It does not matter if the person is standing still or taking a big goofy step. Movement is still happening. A punch or grab contains movement. All attacks in any martial art contain movement.


What about the guy who grabs you and doesn't move, and you are late in action? It is ok. He still has balance, thus he has potential energy - like a boulder perched on a cliff. You merely move yourself and the connection makes movement in uke.


Still my statement stands - all attack has momentum in origin. If you find yourself in a static relationship - move. The simple act of changing the relationship causes movement.





PS - Upload videos to youtube

Perhaps a closer look into the nature of good karate would be useful:

1. A proper snap technique requires that the striker produces a wave of energy through his or her body. This wave of energy typically originates from a quick, tight rotation of the striker’s center (hara), and this energy travels through the striker’s body and exits from an extremity, such as a foot or fist.

2. The following is a definition of the word “wave”: A periodic disturbance of the particles of a substance that may be propagated without net movement of the particles, such as in the passage of undulating motion, heat, or sound.

3. Referring back to the previously posted definition of “momentum”, I can easily see that a body of mass that contains a zero net movement of particles has a zero net momentum.

Now, it is easy for a misunderstanding to arise because learning to transfer a wave of power through your body is not a trivial task, and it can take many years to master this. I have not mastered this principle myself, but I have posted my best try on youtube.com at Eric’s request. Notice that I try to keep my head and hips in line with my center during my strikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYUc1aaeO3o

We must be taking about different things, because you are moving like crazy in that video. Your hand moves from point a to point b, then returns. Your weight shifts in order to stand one one leg to kick. You are full of potential energy from your muscles firing to keep yourself standing.

I think you might be thinking of kata of technique where we start from a distance and insure we have nice moving feet and center of our uke. While this is nice, it is also an elementary training method to instill skills. You can do Aikido on a person standing still. You can do aikido on a person laying down. You might have to wait, or create some motion through connection, but all is permissible.

So yes, it should not be difficult to perform aikido under any of these conditions. And yes, it is fairly easy to do aikido with a karate man.

Air moves when sound travels through it, but I don't have to blow air at you for you to hear the sound. The net movement of the air is zero. Please refer back to the definition of a wave. Yes, my body is moving all over, but the net motion of the sum of that parts is zero (if I am performing the technique properly).

You can continue debating about this if you want, but your argument is not with me. Your argument is either against the principles of physics or the basic tenants of karate.

Of course aikido works against karate. That isn't the point. The point is that as a beginner, my exposure to aikido was in balance breaks like in Hanasu No Kata, and well trained karate people don't attack like that. Then I proposed a simple way to deal with a karate player by using shomenate as an entry to other aikido techniques.

Ahh yes I see.

And sorry about the lack of precision in my language on the original post. To post something like that in an aikido forum almost looks like I'm trying to be a troll 🙂

Karl Wenzel wrote: ...as a beginner, my exposure to aikido was in balance breaks like in Hanasu No Kata, and well trained karate people don't attack like that.

The first four (essential) releases all apply to parrying strikes as well as to hand grabs. The hand grab is a complication to the basic purpose of the release, which is strategic positioning along with kuzushi. If you learn wrist grabs you can do parries and any other grabs, but if you only do parries you can't deal with a grab.

Karl Wenzel wrote:Then I proposed a simple way to deal with a karate player by using shomenate as an entry to other aikido techniques.

All the balance breaks in the basic throwing kata (17 and big 10) are shomenate used as an entry.

In all cases, the point is moving beyond the training form.

Karl Wenzel wrote: ...as a beginner, my exposure to aikido was in balance breaks like in Hanasu No Kata, and well trained karate people don't attack like that.

The first four (essential) releases all apply to parrying strikes as well as to hand grabs. The hand grab is a complication to the basic purpose of the release, which is strategic positioning along with kuzushi. If you learn wrist grabs you can do parries and any other grabs, but if you only do parries you can't deal with a grab.

Karl Wenzel wrote:Then I proposed a simple way to deal with a karate player by using shomenate as an entry to other aikido techniques.

All the balance breaks in the basic throwing kata (17 and big 10) are shomenate used as an entry.

In all cases, the point is moving beyond the training form, which it appears you are doing!

Just a reminder.... kuzushi doesn't always mean "balance break". It can mean posture break. A person's posture can be broken in their mind and that is why sen-sen-no-sen and sen-no-sen work. In a real fight, the old trick of looking past your opponent as if someone is sneaking up on them really does work. He will probably be to wise to look behind himself however, he will know the possibility exists so he will shift part of his ki in that direction. At that moment his posture is broken. There are many ways to accomplish this sort of kuzushi. I know this sounds silly but it actually works.

I appreciate the feedback this thread is creating. I have aikido class tomorrow, and I hope the instructor asks "do you have anything that you would like to work on?"... Although I doubt I have enough mat time yet to implement many of these ideas at anything close to combat speed.

I recall reading a wonderful paper dealing with this exact question, which, unless I am mistaken, was written by Sensei Geis and transcribed/put down as an article by Nick.

It's around somewhere, isn't it?

The whole paradigm of aikido is as a defensive, meaning non-aggressive, art, so that defense assumes that the attacker is "coming in" and the defender isn't "going in" to him, at least to begin the encounter. Once the event has begun, of course our cool Aiki-Joe moves forward, but that's where he gets his technique from, if that's the appropriate place to go based on what the attacker is doing.

Controlling the space and distance seems the best way to deal with strikers. I've been dealing with them for .... ahh.... man that's depressing .... 35 years now. If you control the space and distance, either too close or too far, their stuff is rendered ineffective. Put, we/they train for that against each other that way because we/they know it's how to deal with themselves, too. So.... it's no easy thing -- if you HAVE to engage. If you don't HAVE to engage, it's really easy. Just move back and away.

That might sort of gut-punch your ego, but I've never had my ego actually pay for a check that it's written, either.