Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Let me start with this: If you play with knives, you're going to get cut. Period. I seriously doubt there is anyone reading this who hasn't been cut with a kitchen knife while performing some task of slicing, dicing, chopping, deboning, filleting, etc. in the kitchen. Paper cuts don't count 😂

If you have an encounter against an attacker with a knife, you're going to get cut. Period. Get used to the idea. It will probably help keep you from going into shock when he cuts you for the first time.

In tonight's Aikido class I asked the 11 people (self included) who carried a knife on a regular basis. Answer: 3. Just a random factoid.


In some of the classes the past couple of weeks, we've focused on knives. Defensively, we looked at the responses in Aikido's Koryu-Dai-San and some empty-hand Filipino arts entries that feed nicely to Aikido terminations. Offensively, we also looked at tori (the good guy) holding a knife, and using it during Aikido release techniques and how it will work the same as it feeds to the 17 techniques of Randori-No-Kata.

In all of this, we've also looked at things from two sides -- what you don't want to get cut if you are empty handed, and understanding areas to cut if you have a knife. It's the same targets. It's the same lesson with a dose of reinforcement about why. It's a short lesson to know the juicy spots that are show stoppers. This isn't about scoring points in a tournament, this is about the real world.

In martial arts training, empty hand defense against a knife is a tough game -- even against an untrained opponent. The Filipino arts deal with knives as a core element, so they're more prepared. Aikido, Judo, Karate, Kung-Fu, BJJ, etc. are behind the curve on this aspect.

Empty hand defense against a guy skilled in using a knife.... well, hope you can find a bigger badder weapon for that empty hand. Knives are a messy, lethal business, and the best solution is having a black belt in run-fu. Seriously, if you can leave, GO! Even with something in your hands with a range advantage this is still a problematic puzzle, as any over-commitment on your part results in giving your partner an opening to enter and wreak havoc. It can result in a Mexican standoff where neither side engages, which ought to be plenty fine.

Maintaining eye contact and using this to control distance is one of the best bets. DO NOT watch the knife. You're going to get cut anyway, but watching the blade ensures it will be very, very bad when it happens. Do not reach for the opponent, as he will only proceed to cut whatever you've offered him (assuming he's got some level of skill).

It's also important to note that in an encounter outside the dojo, it is good to pay attention to small details. Grappling becomes highly problematic should your opponent produce a blade and start carving you like a Thanksgiving turkey. The knife clips visible on the outside of pants pockets should be a beacon of potential danger, but most people will not even notice them.

Random thoughts. Need to play with different attack options yet, especially the prison shank "sewing machine" attack. Need to look at the brain-mouth disconnect when the attacker is forced to speak to provide a moment to gain entry.

More things that came to me this morning about knife work:

Of the traditional weapons we train with -- bokken, jo, baton, etc. -- the knife has the closest range. It takes the least amount of space to maneuver. It is operationally faster than any of the other weapons. It's the big kid on the block.

Other weapons take more space to operate, and therefore provide more time to mount a response. Closer is harder.

Current events in my life have led me to take a walk on memory lane. Most of my youth, was spent in Papua New Guinea. Please humor my musings that may, or may not be relevant  the subject at hand. 
I was very involved with security, and was taught this method.
1. Survey the area looking for possible threats. 
2. Observe those areas-people for changes. In the bush this might be movement where it might not naturally occur, sudden movement of birds, animals, or even bugs. In a market it might be a a sudden change in crowd movements around a particular person. Changes in posture, movement or focus. Often recognizing trouble early, makes avoiding it altogether possible.
3. Move naturally. If the threat thinks your an unaware target he will often betray his intent, by his actions. Criminals by there nature are lazy, optimists. He has it all figured out; what, how, and when he will strike. This is to your advantage. As he begins to strike, you have the  element of surprise. Simple things like a pivot, short step, or sudden stop will throw his whole plan off kilter. While he is reassessing the situation he is the proverbial sitting duck. I can't think of a time that I wasn't successful when I saw it coming. It is that big of an advantage. 
What does this have to do with a knife fight? I don't know, I have never been in one. The thought of a squared up fight with a knife wielding man holds little appeal to me. However I have taken people down who had a hand in a pocket, were reaching to there belt, or into a bag. Those were good days.

David Schrock

To Kyle's stuff, I'll respond with the sword wins, if you've got one. Drawn. Same with a firearm. Problem is, most people don't have a katana to hand all the time, and it's definitely not actually drawn when the caca strikes de ventilateur. On guns, I think guns are neat, on TV. In person, they scare the bejeezus out of me. Really, and no clue why, they always have. Short blades are legal, concealable, come out in a big hurry and can kill you dead before you even realized there was a fight on.

Summation: Stay out of knife fights if at all possible. Practice run-fu at all costs unless you're cornered or have to protect a loved one. Screw property, you can always make more money if you're alive. Can't if your left blleding to death in the street.

On David's stuff: Back in the bouncer days, I used every single one of those same techniques in the bars I worked out, no kidding. Watch the groups, feel the rhythyms, watch the disturbances in the patterns of noises and/or movement, change directions or my own movement suddenly but without jerking around. It all worked like a charm.

Five years in tough clubs, and only a handful of actual physical encounters to deal with. A notable one with a shotgun weilder was much easier to deal with because the idiot was NOT waving a knife at me. That would have been very bad. For me, I think.

Kyle Sloan wrote:Let me start with this: If you play with knives, you're going to get cut.

lol

Yeah. No kidding. Usually you plan for the other guy to cut you.

Important lesson: when opening an Emerson wave-feature knife (carried in the blade forward position), KEEP YOUR FREE HAND OUT OF THE DAMN WAY! Otherwise, have your insurance card & co-pay ready.