Chokes, Armbars and Pins

Started by BradWells · Sep 19, 2007 · 6 posts

(13 posts)
Chokes, Armbars and Pins
I have a couple questions about grappling in general.....when you are doing free ne waza (in a training setting), you should always work on estabishing superior position (aka pins) prior to moving to a jointlock or choke....correct?

Secondly, is this one of those "go back to go forward" ideas where you will get owned for a long while until your technique is adequate for these things to come on their own?

Third, if you have "partial" choke or armbar in a training setting, you work on improving your position instead of manupulating the joint or choke into the position you want.....correct?

The reason I ask is that I want to make sure I have the right perspective on what we are trying to accomplish. I seem to be getting "submitted" quite frequently and find myself wondering if I am being to passive in this area. I don't mind the "losing" part, I just want to confirm that I am going about this the right way.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
(1808 posts)
BradWells wrote:I have a couple questions about grappling in general.....when you are doing free ne waza (in a training setting), you should always work on establishing superior position (aka pins) prior to moving to a jointlock or choke....correct?


Yes. The progression in grappling is to secure a pin an establish control. From here, you work toward choking. People tend to fight off chokes, giving you armbars. They don't like armbars so they coil back, and provide you with a choke.

Secondly, is this one of those "go back to go forward" ideas where you will get owned for a long while until your technique is adequate for these things to come on their own?


That's the way it was in the old days. I don't think it has to be that way anymore. It isn't a very productive training method. Working with your partner in a cooperative spirit so that you both learn is what Kano was conveying with "Jita Kyoei (you me shine together). You should work very slow, so that you have the opportunity to see techniques as they are developing, rather than once you've blown past them. Both people should be willing to point out opportunities for their partner to apply different techniques when things stall.

Third, if you have "partial" choke or armbar in a training setting, you work on improving your position instead of manipulating the joint or choke into the position you want.....correct?


I like to work on improving my position rather than using force to achieve the end result. It's very tempting to use strength, but in the long run skill wins over power every time. I might abandon the position, or I might shift body position so that my choke/armlock becomes better.

Let's look at the meat grinder series as an example. Once we execute the forward roll portion from the turtle, we begin to work on a choke. If our partner is too low, we secure a better body relationship before beginning the choke.

The reason I ask is that I want to make sure I have the right perspective on what we are trying to accomplish. I seem to be getting "submitted" quite frequently and find myself wondering if I am being to passive in this area. I don't mind the "losing" part, I just want to confirm that I am going about this the right way.


Hard to say if you're being too passive. Submitting is a safer avenue than resisting the technique. The hardest guy to throw in the dojo is the one who takes the most falls. I invested in my losses in standing and grappling for a long, long time.

If you are "losing" more than "winning" my suggestion is to ask your partner to slow down, and talk your way through the grappling session. By having to verbalize our movements and thoughts we can keep the pace slower, but we can also clue our partner in on what we're thinking. For example, if I see an armbar coming in two moves I might drop you a warning that I see juji-gatame coming. This allows us the chance to figure it out. What happened that I see the technique coming? What can you do to correct this?

Training has to be safe, fun and educational for everyone involved.
(368 posts)
As far as getting a hold first, then going to a choke, then an armbar goes, I'd agree with Kyle about doing it that progression. Of course, then I think about Chuck, who liked to just hang out on the ground on his back, and even though the OTHER guy had a hold or a superior position, Chuck would choke him and armbar him anyway! =) Guess that comes with lotsa time.

.....

I also agree about going slow and discussing what you're doing. It's especially frustrating for a new guy to get constantly creamed by a really experienced guy. They definitely don't have any fun.

Most of the time, if I get an armbar on someone, I'll stop and explain why it happened (how the other guy ended up there). Then I'll "rewind" the movement until we're almost, but not quite at the armbar, and give the other person a chance to see how to go with the motion and deal with it.

.....

We talk about starting in the gutter and if you can escape from there, you can have all kinds of freedom to move around. Letting yourself get "got" is a good way to learn the technique yourself. Probably half of what's in my "toolbelt" is stuff folks demonstrated in class as a drill and the other half is stuff higher ranks did TO ME. Your brain picks it up and you'll surprise yourself when you spring it on someone.

But I think it's also worthwhile, once you've been got, to pause and test a few options about how to deal with the situation, to talk it through with your partner. And of course, the more hours you have, the less you'll get "got" overall...
(1808 posts)
Sean Ashby wrote:
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I also agree about going slow and discussing what you're doing. It's especially frustrating for a new guy to get constantly creamed by a really experienced guy. They definitely don't have any fun.

Most of the time, if I get an armbar on someone, I'll stop and explain why it happened (how the other guy ended up there). Then I'll "rewind" the movement until we're almost, but not quite at the armbar, and give the other person a chance to see how to go with the motion and deal with it.


This is one of the major benefits of keeping the speed down & verbalizing. By doing so, you have the ability to "rewind" the positions and change outcomes. This is a really great teaching technique.
(368 posts)
Oh! Also... Sometimes I'll stop the action, too, when I see that the lower rank I'm working with is inches away from getting something on ME, but they don't realize it. Then I'll talk about what hold/choke/arm bar lives there. Works both ways...
(231 posts)
There's too much good teaching advice for me to add to, so I'll take another tack. It seems to me when I find myself most vulnerable to a submission is when I'm doing most of the work. Think of the envelope drill: a good movement at the wrong time will get you turned over. Minimize any arbitray movements, and you minimize your vulnerability.