Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

So, is the knife stuff from san kata worth anything? Is there any knife defense stuff that's worth practicing?

really depends on how you measure "worth anything" -- if you are thinking in terms of a person who has done some real serious training with knives then no-- the mechanical advantige plus real well trained methods and reflexes are pretty tough to balance out-- the unarmed person is uniquely disadvantaged-- probably the best strategy here is avoid engagement or arm your self pronto and hopefully get the difference in range -- the stuff form san kata will help signaifactly but you cant reliably expect good outcomes
But in dealing with normal untrained actions and reflexes (read the vast majority of humans on earth) then yes san kata and alot of other stuff is really good for knife weilders (here outcmes are much more predictable) -- i think of it alot like survival grappling in aikido -- all it can do is increase your odds pretty well considering that most untrained folks will do some pretty inefficent things but with a real grappler who has trianed with his own adrenline response and knows how to work to methodically, youre in a whole other kettle of fish -- as long as you view it as just increasing your chances then it makes sense and is worth alot but in the context of a well trained man with a weapon vs. a well trained man without a weapon -- you put your money on the weapon and your bet pays off better tha avarage

Yeah, I know I'm 2-3 years behind the times with this post, but I just found it and thought you might be interested in some of the knife stuff we've been working on in the last couple of years.

Having spent a couple of years working thru the knife stuff in our aikido with a CSSD modern arnis guy, our last Aiki Buddies Gathering at Magnolia was dedicated to knife stuff - check it out - particularly sessions 9 and following...

http://www.mokurendojo.com/search?q=abg+2008

another related post:

http://www.mokurendojo.com/2008/04/knif ... -hand.html


But of course, the best defense is this one:

http://www.mokurendojo.com/2008/12/froz ... fense.html

Here is an interesting article that Jack sent me dealing with knife "fighting" issues...

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

Cool, thanks for the input everyone! I had heard rumors a while back that maybe that section of san kata wasn't truly viable or realistic, but Nick's comments make sense. Now, I've seen roku kata once or twice, but have never had the opportunity to go through them. I need to get me a DVD or something, I guess.

I like Chris Wilson's quote in another post of "Prentice Glover's Rules of Knife Fighting":

#1. Don't get into knife fights.
#2. Don't get into knife fights. There are plenty of examples where the "winner" of a knife fight bled out and died a few minutes after he killed his opponent.
#3. Let them come to you. Anything you extend is a target.
#4. If you can't avoid a knife fight -- no mercy, no quarter, no pity.


Also, I seem to recall someone mentioning a basic theory that they got from someone else (I want to say they got it from Mr. Norgard, but I could be very wrong), that, if all else, get both hands on uke's knife hand, keep un-bendable arms, keep moving, and go where his hand goes (something like that). Does that sound familiar to anyone? Or does it just sound nuts?

There's another thread regarding knives going on in the Self Defense forum.

Right now, today, I see kata as a demonstration of principles. So, what does the knife defense work in san kata (techniques 17-24) show us? To me, san kata is showing us concepts to defend against the weapon. If the knife is coming from concealment or swings back to gain momentum, close and take control of the knife. Otherwise, stay away from the knife and create space. I've seen other systems that have a much different take on empty hand vs. knife -- some of it is complete crap and some of it is pretty nice.

The situation you describe in closing sounds very much like Adam's encounter. The situation ended up with the bad guy stabbing himself a couple of times and then pulling violently to get his weapon hand away. This is how kote-gaeshi works in the real world, and the people with no ukemi skills often land poorly. This poor chap landed on his head.

We got the same lecture about the san kata sword defense. It presents the five theoretical weak points where tori can take control of the sword. However the windows of opportunity may be unfeasibly small if you are attacked by an experienced swordsman (!) who is reasonably in control of himself. I find the best part of this section is learning to catch the precise timing. And of course the expanded distance.

I've recently watched a few videos of Tomiki aikidoka from two different schools demonstrating the knife section of san kata. I noticed that, while we've always done 1 and 4 very similarly (at least on tori's part, though uke uses a different attack), they did the fourth technique as an actual ushiro ate (as in the 17/23 hon kata), which I thought was kind of interesting. Of course, they also did the first one with an strange sort of "karate chop" to uke's back rather than a separating push off as we do, which I thought was kind of odd....

There are principles and there are techniques....Principles help you react to a condition...techniques are pattern recognitions.....yet if you practice techniques enough with variations you can obtain principles that will be adaptable in a chaotic violent attack....Having had the priviledge of working with Dan Inosanto as well as with John Perkins I have had the opportunity to see knife defenses from 2 totally differently approaches and they both have their merits and weakness...I guess you need to train from both concepts and and see what works for you.....the less complicated is reactive and chaotic and more dependable in a high stress situation with minimal maintainance in terms of training.....train reaction and you have a more consistent application of principles........train techniques and it all depends on your ability to make them a reaction and not a thinking process...that takes more time to train and maintain in your neurophysiologic reaction data base...Prentis has that kind of expertise and training background and I would love to hear his thoughts on these matters..

John Belardo wrote: Having had the priviledge of working with Dan Inosanto as well as with John Perkins ...

What was John Perkins' system like? Looks very good just from looking at the book.

pat

The second edition of Attackproof is coming out this week and you can get it form Amazon or Barnes and Noble. The book will cover knife defenses as a new section which was not covered in the first edition. This summer he will have a seminar in upstate New York on knife stick and gun defenses which I will attend.Most of his work centers on a reactive and limbic reaction and training to direct that response to become not just a protective but an attack as well so that you disrupt the attacker and take away has momentum while you overcome your shock and not become a punching bag before you recognize what is happening to you.This is rather simplistic and the book does a lot better at explaining the principles which come from tai chi , contact flow , body looseness and reaction...many similarities to our aikido mindset of yielding and flowing with the attack...