Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

I've noticed recently that we've been starting to use the term iriminage in place of aikinage (I think). I came across this reference sheet that lists the techniques: http://aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart

I'm not entirely sure how accurate or complete this is and was hoping to get feedback as to thoughts on this chart.

yea i think the term aikinage and iriminage got confused once upon a time....
the chart looks pretty right -- a little off here and there i think aigameate and gyakugameate are out of place-- seems like Pat Parker did something like this once but i can't remember-- Pat ? Hello?

I am by no means an expert, but in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" I thought our old Aiki Nage was most similar to Kokyu Nage, the 20-year throw. Everwhere, Irimi nage looks more like a shomen ate that misses on the far side of uke's face.

Not that I care about names.

To me, our aiki nage most resembles the Ueshiba style irimi nage (although they'll sometimes try to put a little hip in there sometimes, too). They can also be more linear with it at times, too (kind of like a shomen ate that misses the head).



Kokyu nage, however, I see as more like the first couple of techniques from the big ten, with a small difference in hand placement. One hand goes on uke's elbow, drawing it in; the other hand can go in a couple of places: under uke's other elbow, or sometimes to the face (like shomen ate). It can also be thrown in a more linear way, back where uke came from (almost like sumi otoshi).



Although, I've also seen a bunch of other unrelated techniques when I do any searches for kokyu nage. Soooo...

yep kinda looks like that to me too Sean-- kokyunage just might be a larger catagorical description (like "air throw") that has been mis-appropraited as an actual name (from one point of view, this might be the case for all "names" in aikido--I think Ueshiba didnt name anything per se) Anyhow -- everthing living under the rubric of "aikinage" i've looked at (outside of the systems that use the owaza ju pon as a reference point) all seem to have the dissappearing target quality-- iriminages all seem to have the deep shearing cutting across conclusion form a variety of beginnings -- kokyunages often have some uki waza quality with lots of big throws and air falls -- little else seems to link them from what I can tell

I thought I had included this in my last post, but I was editing it after the fact and must not have re-submitted. Anyway, Aikiweb's definition of "kokyu nage" is:

"Kokyu-nage, or "breath throws" are a seemingly very broad and ambiguous class of throws. They range from virtually no-touch techniques to what can appear to be "body slams." Some techniques, such as those termed iriminage and hiji-ate nage in many styles, are referred to as types of kokyunage by other styles."

😨

Riiiiiiiiiight....

nick lowry wrote:seems like Pat Parker did something like this once but i can't remember-- Pat ? Hello?

Here's the cross references I did...

http://www.mokurendojo.com/2006/07/tran ... hombu.html
http://www.mokurendojo.com/2007/01/voca ... sited.html

enjoy...
P

thanks pat -- nice work there

iriminage - shomenate, aigamaeate, gyakugamaeate, or aikinage - any blending evasion followed by a whole-body strike that takes uke off his feet. Gyakugamaeate is also called sokumen iriminage.

I found this bit particularly interesting. As part of my personal "budo broadening" I've looked into a bit of the old Daito Ryu material. I noticed a tendency for a lot of the techniques would have clusters, where 2, 3 or 4 moves, some that looked very different, would all be called xyz nage with a parenthetical omote, ura, yoko, yo and/or in (I have no idea what the last two mean). It's not hard to imagine the names getting truncated or replaced over time and stuff getting mixed up.

in/yo is japanese for the taoist yin /yang

Kokyu nage seem to have in common that there is no "enforcer", similar to our uki waza. The enforcer being a wrist lock or elbow or contact to which kime can be applied, or against which the pain of resistance (or anticipation thereof) will cause a reaction into the throw. Yes it is a blanket term.

"Aiki nage" is a pretty generic term. I am not surprised that Tomiki or a colleague using his reasoning would replace the name with the descriptive "shizumi otoshi", which means "sinking drop" (shizumu, to sink, see http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=6c88).

No idea why that name was used for owaza #5 instead of "irimi nage" which is descriptive and fairly specific, as well as common use, unless the desire was to not limit the irimi nage concept. Technically all the first 5 big ten plus shomen ate and aigamae ate are all variants of iriminage.

nice distinction kokyu shizumi and irimi jack -- thanks

years ago i felt embarassed for our sensei during a filming in which he contiually refered to tenkan action as irimi-- hoping to save him from unecessary critique, i tried to be helpful and nudge him toward more conventional vocbulary --there followed a discussion in which he rejected out of hand any idea of irimi as entering or tenkan as turning and continued unabated with his idosyncratic usage -- it was clear to me that in his mind irimi was the flowing turning action -- not entering -- once i noticed that all the rest of the iriminages in the koryu forms are named conventionaly, this odd discussion event leads me to consider that the mis-labeling of the fifth of Owaza may have sprung from him and has just never been fixed

That would be a good question to ask Miyake sensei should the oportunity arise.

Interestingly, our iaido sensei uses the following terms for body position:

表身 omotemi ("facing position", hips and heels aligned square forward)
半身 hanmi ("half position", hips and back heel at about 30-45 degree angle)
入身 irimi ("entering position", hips and back heel turned 90 degrees)

There seems to be no idea of attacking in irimi in Iai; it is used for turning away from the enemy. In classical Aikido it is considered a flexible position allowing either entry or tenkan.

Just more info to throw on the heap: Wikipedia defines irimi as a general concept that balances in a yin/yang sort of way the idea of tenkan:

Irimi (入り身 ?) is a Japanese martial arts term used to describe entering straight into a technique, as opposed to the more indirect entrance into technique called tenkan. In basic training, irimi usually looks like a step forward, straight or at an angle but usually ending with the body facing the attacker, rather than in the direction of the step. To enter with irimi, the defender needs to move in the very moment of the attack or even himself initiate it.

and...

Irimi involves entering deeply around or behind an attack to defuse or neutralize the attack. The concept of irimi teaches one to blend with or enter into an opponent’s attack to become one with the opponent’s movement and leaving the opponent with nowhere to strike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irimi

Interestly, one Tomiki site's glossary defines "aiki nage" as "throws by body movement only" (http://www2.dokidoki.ne.jp/unoaiki/Qtaa-dic.html)