Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

While we're talking about idiosynchrasies (sp?) like the iriminage/aikinage thing,

What is the right ordering of the first two techniwues of the big-10? I was taught kubiguruma as #1 and kataotoshi as #2, then, if i remember right, Nick's book presented it as kataotoshi, then the 3 gurumas. After that book came out i've seen the occasional rank demo where folks demonstrated otoshi, then guruma.

Do y'all have a preference or opinion about the ordering of those 2 techniques?

Pat

I see them as a progression of missed shomen ate. #1 just misses the face, kubiguruma. #2 is jammed at the shoulder, kataotoshi. #3 is inside at the armpit, udeguruma. #4 is at the elbow, hijiguruma. #5 is when uke attacks with the other hand but you react exactly as #1 , aikinage/iriminage.

I guess the 1 & 2 could in whatever order. I think the otoshi was moved up because it is easier as an introduction, and it puts the gurumas together. However I think kubiguruma is the fundamental movement of the kata so it belongs first.

i believe the alternate order of otoshi and garuma was introduced to me by Mac Neese in the early 1990's and had to do with a sequence of variations of the entry step from far to near-- from the greatest range you start with the shoulder contact, a little closer you get the neck, tighter yet, the shoulder/armpit process and finally the elbow-- he even used little colored pins to mark the track of the foot placements in sequence

as an alternative riai, the blown shomenate theory works well too and was the first method I encountered in training-- Jack --could you say more about the kubigaruma being fundamental? i take it you are seeing it as a diverging centers/pulling apart form of "shomenate?"

OOH! I remember that line of thinking from Mac - i've even re-told that lecture occasionally (tho not as adequately as Mac used to) - I just never connected that with the oredring of the techniques.

I'd like to hear why Jack thinks kubiguruma is the fundamental thing in this kata - I would guess it's because the whole kata is all about guruma actions...

P

Yes and yes...

1. Kubiguruma is the closest in form to the failed shomen ate. It is one of those "oh shit" techniques that start a kata by surviving a fundamental failure condition.
2. It introduces the guruma concept straightforwardly with the bodies pretty much facing evenly (less convolution, you have a connection point at the center line).
3. The movement is directly convertible to #5 aikinage on the other side (so there are multiple branch options).
4. It is also a strong irimi movement, whereas kataotoshi is interrupted (unbendable arm against shoulder) and does not enter as deeply. So I see kataotoshi as a variant condition.

I remember a Mac lecture on these (or was it Henry) who proposed that kubiguruma is failed atemiwaza, udeguruma is failed hijiwaza, hijiguruma is failed tekubiwaza. That idea places kubiguruma first to parallel the junanahon structure. There was also a judo tie-in since the maai is so compressed and you can go into makikomi if you hang on and sacrifice yourself into the throw.

I do remember the MacNease reasoning about progression of distance, and it is quite valid as well. Also, students may have an easier time starting with the familiar otoshi, and it puts the three gurumas together.

Jack Bieler wrote:Yes and yes...


I remember a Mac lecture on these (or was it Henry) who proposed that kubiguruma is failed atemiwaza, udeguruma is failed hijiwaza, hijiguruma is failed tekubiwaza. That idea places kubiguruma first to parallel the junanahon structure. There was also a judo tie-in since the maai is so compressed and you can go into makikomi if you hang on and sacrifice yourself into the throw.

thanks Jack -- i like the nice parallelism here -- and incidentally Aikibudokan is developing a sutemi form of owaza currently -- nice stuff -- should be fun (given you have skilled ukemi, that is)

Jack Bieler wrote:...I remember a Mac lecture on these (or was it Henry) who proposed that kubiguruma is failed atemiwaza, udeguruma is failed hijiwaza, hijiguruma is failed tekubiwaza. That idea places kubiguruma first to parallel the junanahon structure. There was also a judo tie-in since the maai is so compressed and you can go into makikomi if you hang on and sacrifice yourself into the throw.

I do remember the MacNease reasoning about progression of distance, and it is quite valid as well. Also, students may have an easier time starting with the familiar otoshi, and it puts the three gurumas together.

I like the idea of these parallels, but I am not sure I get it. for instance, all the hijiwaza (except hikitaoshi) are done outside of uke's arm. from there it seems you could get to aikinage but not to udeguruma. The parallel between tekubiwaza and hijiguruma seems like it would happen easier.

I have found that my students get the hang of otoshi faster and seem to get into this kata easier when kataotoshi is done first.

Patrick Parker wrote: I like the idea of these parallels, but I am not sure I get it. for instance, all the hijiwaza (except hikitaoshi) are done outside of uke's arm. from there it seems you could get to aikinage but not to udeguruma. The parallel between tekubiwaza and hijiguruma seems like it would happen easier.

I think the "failure" included being on the wrong side of the arm.