Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Is there any interest in blending aikido with judo as an integration class where you start in aikido and come into grappling range and transition into either a judo throw or the ground with a finality of a choke or some form of submission? I think with the great talent and experience we have at the dojo that this would indeed set us apart from the usual aikido and actually join in with what other dojos are evolving and doing as well around the country.I have seen some beautiful kata integrating aikido with grappling arts and see a great potential at Windsong....What are the thoughts on this idea?

I don't know John. It has its good & bad points.

My tendency is to keep the two as separate, unique classes and perhaps look at things here and there. As a reference point for the masses, the vast majority (over 90%) of our active Judo program are also Aikido students. There are a very small handful who do Judo exclusively.

Both are throwing and off-balance arts geared toward using the attacker's energy & momentum against them. The main concept is to create an off-balance condition which affords us a moment in time (during the attacker's recovery of balance) to take control. In this, they are similar.

Aikido is more about projection throws (throw uke away from you), where Judo tends to throw downward (to permit an easy entry into grappling among other reasons). While the principles of ukemi remain the same, how they feel is much different. I suspect most Aikido people say that Judo falls feel quicker and scarier. I suspect Judo folks would say the same thing about Aikido ukemi, because in Judo we typically have a positive grip and a very good reference point, as well as a partner who guides us to the earth and takes the edge off the fall. So, the ukemi is the same, yet it's radically different.

In addition, we know for a fact Aikido looks pretty good on security cameras. "I was trying to keep him away" (maintaining maai). "I fell down" or "He pushed me down" (and just happened to hang on as I did it). It can look accidental. Judo, on the other hand, does not. It's pretty obvious that something bad happened, and it's going to be a whole lot harder to pass off as anything innocent.

The dangerous part about blending the two is the sacrifice of maai. Aikido maintains a defensive mindset, whereas good Judo is all about offense. Aikido can easily function at & inside maai, but with Judo I really want to close and get a grip (or get even closer). When Karl introduced footsweeps to Aikido, some of the Aikido-only folks I worked with at the summer clinic in Houston really disliked the loss of maai. A few of us Judo guys are notorious for sacrificing Aikido maai, even though it isn't necessarily the smartest thing to do.

If I am correct they are already blended in Goshin Jitsu Kata. Many years ago Karl Geis said this was the only common kata.It was taught at a clinic in the late 80's or early 90's'.

Goshin Jitsu does appear to be a great cross-over kata. I think the kata offers some neat insights, as Nick was sharing a few of his new insights into the kata (concepts like uki-otoshi and ashi-guruma being present, though they appear as other actions). It has a neat feel when it's performed with Aikido's softness and circularity, as well as in more of a Judo fashion with a hard-style feel.

Miyake taught a clinic at several schools in the mid-to-late 90's, as well as a couple of years ago in Houston.

It is perhaps more accurate to say that Goshinjutsu kata was created to intoduce aiki self defense application (and a few other ideas as well) to kodokan judo-- another judo kata that can be seen to bridge the aiki/ju gap would be koshiki no kata which originates in the kito ryu and provides seminal kuzushi ideas to both arts.

I don't want to propagate any errant rumors, but I heard a story about the origin of the Goshinjitsu Kata. This kata was introduced by Tomiki and also Miyake to teach some Aikido-based self-defense because apparently while visiting France, going through a bad part of town, some Judo Players actually got beaten up by some street thugs. And even though the Judo players might have been actually good on the mat, in a tournament with rules, they did not know how to handle themselves on the street. So Tomiki introduced this highly practical kata. I think this story came from Moose? Anyway, it's rumor until you can confirm its accuracy.

When I was first exposed to the kata when Miyake came to teach it, I had already a few years into Aikido. While going through the techniques, I felt very comfortable doing it. Since then, I have seen Judo Players doing it in Judo Tournament Competition, and it did not look so smooth as when you see an Aikidoka doing.