Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Okeydokey-- i realize that I have been way too exuberent in my "research projects" and that the end result has been to cause confusion and brain fry amongst even my seasoned veterans
--oops sorry --
as a corrective we shall revert to our normative values

We're going to have a return to the good old days (think here pre-1999) and run standard classes as per the following:

Bow In (i will lead a short meditation when i'm in)
Stretch -5 minutes
Ukemi (falling and rolling) -5-10 minutes
Walking Kata -5 minutes
8 releases --5-10 minutes
17 Kata (work sections appropriate to lower ranks grade material:1-5 to yonkyu/1-10 sankyu/1-14 nikyu/1-17 ikkyu/ 1-17 and 1-5 of big ten to shodan) 15-20 minutes
last 10 minutes of class are instructors choice/ lesson time (randori, self-defense, renzoku chains, ura waza, higher kata etc.)
During evening classes the extra 30 minutes after class can be utilized for instructors choice/lesson time as well

This structure should be very familiar to all the old timers but will be new to some of the newer black belts we should rotate them through leading classes as always

Satuday Class (11:30 AM) i will utilize as my Research Lab and do my creative stuff-- not a black belt class per se -- all ranks are still welcome, but my emphasis here will be on higher grade material and experimentation-- all the rest of the weekly classes will focus on material for promotion to shodan (walk-releases-17- big 10) and only have the creative stuff as addendums for the last 10 (for morning and noon ) or 30 minutes (for evening sessions)

I am aiming for the best of both worlds here -- i'd like to stablize the foundational work so all the black belts have has a solid center to operate from as instructors and also maintain my own momentum in the research and development activity that has lit my fire lately -- i think and hope this new(old) structure will meet all our mutual needs and launch us into new and interesting directions while instilling confidence in our core material

Any feedback you may have is greatly appreciated.

Drilling the quarter notes... this is almost exactly my class format, usually 1.5 hr sessions. The one issue is I have to be strict about the times, otherwise I lose my last ~20 minutes of special topics.

I am one of the newer black belts and so have had no experience with the "old" format. One thing that struck me when I first started at Windsong and that has been strengthened as I have continued here both as a student and in the few times I have lead a class, is the idea of getting everyone involved from white belt on up is the principle of constant movement and if one technique does not work then move to another then another, etc. The chain method gave suggestions of techniques which you could use if this or that happens but the ultimate judge of what was "right" was where tori and uke found themselves at a certain point in time and the technique being executed. This constant movement principle and teaching method lead us into examples for the other principles, body rise and fall, eye contact, maintaining posture, etc.

When I have worked with different people on the 23 and the big 10 for their shodan demonstration, the manner in which I taught these kata was fairly stop and go. Uke gives the attack, tori responds with the appropriate balance break, uke regains his balance appropriately for the particular technique, and then tori performs the specific technique. Then uke gets up and we move to the next one. (Another good thing about the chain method is by the time we start working on the Shodan demo, the brown belt has seen all or most of the individual techniques as part of the chain.) At least the way I have been teaching it, there is very little constant movement outside of the particular technique being worked on.

I guess my point is, that working the chain method off the releases, and taking time out to learn the specific kata seems like a good teaching method for someone like me to learn from, specifically regarding the principle of constant movement.

Very valid point regarding constant movement, Scott. There's another thread on finishing techniques in the Aikido forum which has been pretty thought provoking for some.

In Saturday's class, we observed people working on material in two different formats. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I believe it was 13 sets of partners practicing the #9 chaining material. We counted the number of times uke performed ukemi over the course of 4 bells; i.e. 4 bells * 3 minutes each * 13 pairs = 156 man minutes on the floor. While working in the chaining format, uke took a kneeling position or ukemi a total of 27 times. As an experiment we switched to 2 bells of releases, followed by two bells of 17 kata form. The amount of ukemi in the same duration (I could argue less time, since releases typically don't result in throws) more than doubled over the same period to 57 times. In my opinion, both represent very low numbers for ukemi, even when considering the ages of the folks on the floor and the number of people intentionally not taking falls because of age or medical issues.

The "chaining" training concept provides a great amount of, in Judo terminology, kuzushi (off-balance) and tsukuri (fitting) but seems to lack in the aspect of kake (throwing, or finishing a technique). The "old" format cures the kake aspect, but it sacrifices the application of successive techniques when tori blows it.

By adjusting our training concepts, we should provide a healthy dose of both formats. The "old" way at the beginning of class, some of the "chaining" or the new ura-waza applications Nick has developed.... it's a potential way to solve a problem.

good tip jack thanks---- nice explanation kyle (youjust type a little quicker than me-- heres what i think) -- i agree Scott -- the chain method has unquestionalbly improved and facilitated a high level of skill with the constant movment ideas-- of late i have been noticing that it has had a few unintended consequences though; one of which is that folks tend to fall into habits of practice where they move alot but rarely to a conculsion or finishing action and have complete ukemi-- on the tori side the method is amazing at fostering kuzushi skill and tsukuri skill (balance breaking and fitting) but tends to blur out kake (throw) and kime (single point focus).
On the uke side, the chain idea teaches alot about the principle of ju and of moving with a line of force to "out run" a technique but rarely embodies the full activity of ukemi which is necessary and important for self defense.
Another side effect is that because of its size and complexity it is a system that makes it hard to have simple reference points for "knowing what you know" -- it is hard to develop simple confidence as a teacher in a landscape that is always changeing and evolving

In any case we are not shelving or stopping our work with the chains or with any of our other randori oriented activitiy (in fact randori is my main personal interest) -- we will continute to teach and work with all the same stuff (and more cool stuff with the ura waza developments) but in smaller regular doses-- we'll use the kata structure to build sharper skills on the micro level (the stop go you mentioned builds its own set of specialized reactive functions) and supplement with randori work on the macro (the level of flow and constant movment) -- not looking to return to the days of clunky kata but to more well rounded practice

Plus selfishly i want to reserve saturdays for more experinmental work and less "review of whatever part of the randori series is next on the agenda"-- less top down approach this way -- more bottom up

nick lowry wrote: Bow In ...
Stretch -5 minutes
Ukemi (falling and rolling) -5-10 minutes
Walking Kata -5 minutes
8 releases --5-10 minutes
17 Kata (work sections appropriate to lower ranks grade material:1-5 to yonkyu/1-10 sankyu/1-14 nikyu/1-17 ikkyu/ 1-17 and 1-5 of big ten to shodan) 15-20 minutes
last 10 minutes of class are instructors choice/ lesson time (randori, self-defense, renzoku chains, ura waza, higher kata etc.)
During evening classes the extra 30 minutes after class can be utilized for instructors choice/lesson time as well

This is pretty much our standard practice - except we spin through releases 1-2 times as a warmup/reminder in katamode, then do some chain material, typically followed by rank-level kata work

for the 'special topics' i usually do what i call "cool ninja technique o' the day" which is typically something from a higher-level kata than anyone was working on that day - something that the practice reminds me of that day.


P

We use the same basic format.. I like the "cool ninja technique o' the day" idea...

Sounds cool. I think it might be cool to have a kata/chain so you could have a class ciriculum built around attacks from behind. I think It'd be fun. I think it's a shame those techniques are a) scattered in differnt katas or b) one-of technique instead of a training sequence.

Just $0.02

good idea chris we'll fool with that for sure

I did a quick re-read of this and a couple of things I said sounded like a slam on the "new - post 99" way of doing things. I tried to insert an addendum in those places because that was not my intention. If there is something that sounds like a slam, please point it out and I will be happy to clarify.

Being a guy that started in June of 93', I have to say...I'm excited about this! I saw this post and got a big goofy smile on my face. 😂

I'm not advanced enough to endorse one way over the other so I can only speak to what I know and my experience in both the "old" way and the "new" way. I made it to w/in a few hours of Ikkyu before I left to go be an 18 year old (still kicking myself over that) and I know that doesn't seem like much, but when your a kid...a couple years of your life seems like forever! So I'm admittedly a little bias in which method I like over the other.

I've been reading people's thoughts on finishing and have had similar thoughts myself.

I have found that when working with people in the chaining method, they are on to the next technique before they had me at critical mass in the previous one. It seems like now, and again this is just my impression, people are too concerned with what technique is coming next in the chain to hit the current one dead on. I thought that was what randori was for (chaining)? I don't get to critical mass until the end of the chain now.

We use to take everything to completion. Ideally, if you did a technique right there was no need to move on to something else. And I feel very confident in saying we did do the techniques correct, because of the leadership of Chuck and Nick. You didn't have to listen to those guys speak for very long to realize they knew what they were talking about (there was a certain swagger about the dojo back then and if you were there you know what I'm talking about and if you weren't...the easiest way I can describe it is to say it had the same feel as I imagine the modern day Oklahoma football team has under the leadership of Bob Stoops..not cocky..not braggadocios...but unwaveringly confident). Now, maybe because all the "old" guys are old! 🙂 Or maybe because of the system, that feel is kind of gone for me. Don't get me wrong, I love the atmosphere of the dojo as it is today everybody is very friendly and nice and confident...but I miss the "old" confidence that seemed to ooze out the doors of the old place too.

nick lowry wrote:Another side effect is that because of its size and complexity it is a system that makes it hard to have simple reference points for "knowing what you know" -- it is hard to develop simple confidence as a teacher in a landscape that is always changeing and evolving

Agree 100%! Before, I knew what I knew! That is a great way to put it.

My releases were awesome, finishing arm bars were superb, balance breaks awesome and Ukemi outstanding (that's not me bragging on how good I was..I credit the structure of the class, repetition, repetition, repetition and emphasis by Chuck, Nick and everyone else involved at the time on making sure everything was done @ a high level.) I still think things are done @ a high level, just in another way, or I wouldn't be here today. But it seemed like it was easier to pay attention to small details in the "old" system versus this one. When you have certain belts only doing certain things, you get the fine points drilled into your head. Where as now it seems like information overload and you do a lot of things..okay..versus a few things really really well.

John Wooden the legendary UCLA basketball coach said "It's the little details that are vital. Little things make big things happen."

By only focusing on a few things at each belt level, you become really really good at those few things. Once you get really really good at those few things, then your up for promotion and the process starts over. I remember Chuck saying one time when a higher belt was teaching a lower belt something that was really to advanced for them at the time, something to the effect of "don't worry about teaching them that now, stick to what they should be learning, they'll get there."

Does this mean we are going to start going to 8 counts in Ukemi again instead of 6?

To this day I have to make a conscious effort to stop at 6..and sometimes I still hit 7, haha! I know it doesn't seem like much but those extra 2 falls on each one add up quick and it only takes an extra minute or so to do them.

Anyway, again, I'm excited about this!

Chris Wilson wrote: I think it might be cool to have a kata/chain so you could have a class ciriculum built around attacks from behind. I think It'd be fun. I think it's a shame those techniques are a) scattered in differnt katas or b) one-of technique instead of a training sequence.

You are exactly right on that one - the rear techniques are scattered throughout the kata such that we never get a grasp of the wholeness of rear technique and we pretty much always suck at them.

for a year or two I have been slowly mulling over a set of all the rear techniques from the koryu no kata. we occasionally work through the rear techniques all at once similar to what youre talking about.

same with suwariwaza - it's scattered and de-emphasized. it needs to be collected into its own kata and we need a form of kneeling randori for the suwariwaza to become 'real' instead of remaining de-emphasized time-wasters. i've been contemplating that one for a while too...

Damon Kornele wrote:By only focusing on a few things at each belt level, you become really really good at those few things. Once you get really really good at those few things, then your up for promotion and the process starts over. I remember Chuck saying one time when a higher belt was teaching a lower belt something that was really to advanced for them at the time, something to the effect of "don't worry about teaching them that now, stick to what they should be learning, they'll get there."

People can only hold 5-9 things in mind at any one time. That's why the 17 is broken into sets of 5, 5, 4, and 3. San kata sections are 8 at the most. That said, we've always done 10 reps of falls, and sometimes we add the squatting and standing side falls, which gives us 70 reps. It's the aerobic portion of class.

same with suwariwaza - it's scattered and de-emphasized. it needs to be collected into its own kata and we need a form of kneeling randori for the suwariwaza to become 'real' instead of remaining de-emphasized time-wasters. i've been contemplating that one for a while too...

Try doing the 17 or big ten (or releases) in suwariwaza. We had a guy who did San Kata from a chair, why not reverse it? Remember not everyone can do knees.

nick lowry wrote:good idea chris we'll fool with that for sure

Just as long as we don't do it this weekend (17-18th). I'm out of town and I don't want to miss out on my own idea. 😄 😄 😄

I tried the "cool ninja technique o' the day" in class tonight... it was cool watching white/brown belts play with a sankata technique... they had fun and it exposes them to a higher level of thinking in very small doses...

for a year or two I have been slowly mulling over a set of all the rear techniques from the koryu no kata. we occasionally work through the rear techniques all at once similar to what youre talking about.

same with suwariwaza - it's scattered and de-emphasized. it needs to be collected into its own kata and we need a form of kneeling randori for the suwariwaza to become 'real' instead of remaining de-emphasized time-wasters. i've been contemplating that one for a while too...

you might want to take a peek at Shishida and Nariyama's work from the past decade or so -- in the goshin ho there is already a head start in this direction and they have a nice little suwari waza set as well that saw Nettles working with and also i think detailed in their "Aikido:sport book"

As an idea, Tuesday night I had students experiment with something I had talked with J.W. Bode (a genuine bad boy from Lawton). Students do all the releases & 17 they know. Then you begin with a release, then perform every technique of the 17 (one at a time) after the release. So, #1 release, terminate with #1 of the 17 (shomen-ate). Then #1 release, terminate with #2 of the 17 (aigamae-ate). Then #1 release, terminate with #3 of the 17 (gyakugamae-ate). You get the idea.

We discovered some techniques are practically a gimme -- virtually no work required at all. Others demand grip changing, hand passing or other elements often encountered during toshu-randori.

So, if you find yourself looking for something new to play with, give it a spin and let me know what you think.

Wow, I like that a lot.

It seems to me the issue with the chains is that as tori you are *supposed* to be trying to complete each technique. Because it is uke-centric, it is easy for tori to be lulled into running to the next step since that is the pattern. Same thing happens in oshitaoshi-udegaeshi, or the yon kata counters, when tori doesn't give the original technique a chance, and then wonders why the "counter" has no zing to it. Even advanced students have to be reminded, maybe mix it up so they don't know when to cheat. That's hard for a beginner who doesn't have a feel for how to finish techniques. And takes an uke who understands when the throws happen and lets them, while challenging tori. Chains are still a useful part of a balanced diet.