Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

**Just throwing the topic out there. This is in no way directed at one person, but more of a discussion on the direction of our class structure. This is not meant to ruffle feathers, but merely spark a friendly discussion**

Where have the warm-ups and drills gone in Judo. I think we have drifted away from our roots (based on when I first joined in 2000) and have become lazy, for lack of a better word, when it comes to our warm ups and drills. Now, I'm not saying we need to jump of the deep end and go all boot camp crazy. That would portray or instill more of a competive style atmosphere. So I'll just throw out what I've come up with, which is pretty close to what we were doing when I was coming up threw the ranks.

• 7:30 - 7:40 -- Warm Ups: stretching, crunches, reverse crunches, barrel rolls, egg beaters, judo push-ups, bridge and roll.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 7:40 - 7:55 -- Chest crawls, shrimps, reverse shrimps, foot sweeps, and side to side.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 7:55 - 8:00 -- Uchi-komi's[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:00 - 8:20 -- Predetermined lesson. Something applicable to everyone. Broken down into steps without all the reasoning.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:20 - 8:25 -- All students to exchange throws freely ("every throw that you know").[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:25 - 8:30 -- Throw to a hold down, no submissions.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:30 - 8:35 -- five escapes from each side from the major hold downs[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:35 - 8:55 -- Predetermined lesson. Something applicable to everyone. Broken down into steps without all the reasoning.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]
  
• 8:55 - 9:00 -- Students may grapple freely, keeping things friendly. Or students may continue to work on that days lesson material.[/*:m:19jz8ly8]

Derek Hall wrote:Broken down into steps without all the reasoning.

I say this because we don't need all the reasoning to practice a technique. We need the basic mechanics to develop the technique and the reasoning behind those mechanics should present themselves. And I believe the reasoning will present itself when the student is at the appriopriate rank and maturity. I know in my math classes I don't write a long proof and show them why a particular theorem or formula works or where it came from. They could care less. They just care that it works and I just care that they know when, where, and how to use it.

I dunno know, I personally would like to do more drills. I think the kyu grades need and would like more drills.

Once again these comments are directed at any one individual. Just wanted to open a discussion to all parties and see what everyone else thinks.

Most of the Judo guys are already warmed up from Aikido. Since we've been having a lot of advanced ranks, I think skipping some of the conditioning stuff in exchange for more throwing/grappling is a better idea. Should we still do these? Absolutely.

So far as the reasoning behind things, I liken it to the issue with the palm up entry when threading the Americana armlock. Rener made specific mention of it, but didn't go into the why portion. A reason and the why-for's associated with it are much better than "because sensei said".

We've never really worked off of a predetermined lesson, unless there was something from a previous class we needed to address. Lesson time should have value for everyone, and should improve technical qualities for everyone. Teaching uchi-mata to a white belt isn't really productive for them (or their partner, who will be burdened with trying to make it work). Classes (like lately) where it's sankyu or nikyu and above really open the doors to things we haven't done in a while, like the uchi-mata-sukashi to tani-otoshi drill, a little sutegeiko and working against stiff armed opponents.

We tried on a couple of occasions several years ago to develop a codified lesson structure. I can't remember all of the details, but it seems like we tried to focus on one idea from nage-waza and ne-waza. We implemented it, and within a month had decided it wasn't going to work in its current form. I don't believe that the technical system of Judo we have can be codified into a hard lesson plan. There are too many variables based on who shows up.

Kyle Sloan wrote:Most of the Judo guys are already warmed up from Aikido.

Agree, most are warmed up from aikido. And I knew someone would say that. But what about those that do not play aikido?

Kyle Sloan wrote:Since we've been having a lot of advanced ranks, I think skipping some of the conditioning stuff in exchange for more throwing/grappling is a better idea. Should we still do these? Absolutely.

Somewhat agree, the only warm-ups we've been doing are foot sweeps. We don't do the crunches, that strengthen our cores. We don't do egg beaters, that loosen our hips. We don't do bridge-roll, that blocks in that driving motion. We don't shrimps, that helps block in that motion for escapes. We don't do chest crawls, that help with our choking action.

Kyle Sloan wrote:So far as the reasoning behind things, I liken it to the issue with the palm up entry when threading the Americana armlock. Rener made specific mention of it, but didn't go into the why portion. A reason and the why-for's associated with it are much better than "because sensei said".

I don't agree with the whole "because sensei said" thing either. But when trying to process the mechanics and steps to something, giving a dissertation on it at the same time only tends to fog things up. As well as taking away from practicing the technique at hand (to much standing/setting around). You mentioned Rener and the Americana. Probably the only people that wondered why the palm needed rotated was more experienced guys. And when he did address it, it was short and sweet and everyone was good to go.

Kyle Sloan wrote:We've never really worked off of a predetermined lesson, unless there was something from a previous class we needed to address. Lesson time should have value for everyone, and should improve technical qualities for everyone. Teaching uchi-mata to a white belt isn't really productive for them (or their partner, who will be burdened with trying to make it work). Classes (like lately) where it's sankyu or nikyu and above really open the doors to things we haven't done in a while, like the uchi-mata-sukashi to tani-otoshi drill, a little sutegeiko and working against stiff armed opponents.

Agree, but not trying to piss anyone off here, but some of our kyu grades don’t have some of the basics down. So showing them more advanced stuff is somewhat fruitless for them. It’s beneficial for those that have solid foundations, but not so much for those that are still smoothing out basic throws. And I know we all suck at everything, but you know what I’m trying to say.

Kyle Sloan wrote:We tried on a couple of occasions several years ago to develop a codified lesson structure. I can't remember all of the details, but it seems like we tried to focus on one idea from nage-waza and ne-waza. We implemented it, and within a month had decided it wasn't going to work in its current form. I don't believe that the technical system of Judo we have can be codified into a hard lesson plan. There are too many variables based on who shows up.

I know we have discussed before. But the whole “what do we want to work on tonight?” question at lesson time, just doesn’t seem to work for me. I think a lot of people do martial arts for the structure and discipline associated with the arts. Now I’m not saying we need to plan a month ahead what is going to be taught, but I think on Saturdays the lesson for the week could be worked out. Now if the Tuesday evening rolls around and nothing but high ranks are there, then we should run the lesson, make sure we’re all good. And then we can talk about advanced stuff. I also think that what ever that is should be taught both evenings. Having Thursday be a continuance of Tuesday makes it hard on someone if they were not there Tuesday. Now the following week could be continuance of the previous week.

I have to admit, I've been thinking a lot along the same lines as Derek for a long time. When I was doing noon judo, I tried to make it a little more structured (although, unfortunately, we only had an hour, and only have an hour in the morning, so that that limits us more), and I liked where it was going. Then I had to stop doing it, unfortunately. (In the morning classes, it was Brent's show, so I wasn't about to step on any toes).

I also don't care for the "what does everyone want to learn" question, because it always seemed to me that "young" budoka (kyu grades) don't KNOW what they need to know. That seems to me, anyway, like the job of the teacher. I don't imagine Derek would walk into his class and ask that question. Since Brent has been gone for a couple of months, I've started running morning the way I started doing noon, and thinking ahead of time about lessons, standing and grappling. Seems to work pretty well, and folks seems to respond well.

And as for the throws, I started going through all the main throws one or two per week, and did okay with it. Obviously, some are more "advanced" in one way or another, but on those we went slower or only loaded them up, or used a crash pad, or did it lightly (a la Zdenek), and they picked up on it well enough. Kind of like how we would do "advanced" techniques in the aikido chains, and you had green belts doing mae otoshi, etc. Not well, but they got through it and got the basics, too.

Anyway, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject, too, but not much time. Maybe more later...

i think Derek has a pretty good bead on a nice class structure here -- maybe a little more time in uchikomi and nagekomi and a little less for lessontime ( 5 min or less of instruction and 10 minutes for practice and follow up -15 min tops in my book) -- i also like his inclusion of throw to hold down as transition to nei waza

--- more structure is a nice way to go (most of my judo classes were structure oriented) but i can also apprecaite the more free form style ( seen good results this way too) --to me its a matter of personal choice for the ranks running the class-- and i have sympathy for them --after a decade or more of lots of stucture it can feel a bit stifiling, no?

still, structure provides a strong container for helping people "know what they know" and practicing within it does impart a certain confidence and gives folks a sense of progression that they like -- it maintains a comfort zone

in terms of actual learing to me it looks like the progress is there in the free form too-- but i conceed it may be less noticiable to the paricipants--

of course if we see technical holes develop in the skill set we should set out to fill em with either a structured program or looser one

my best advice : use structure where and when its useful but dont get hung up on it --dont turn it into a burden -- dont feel like you must use it -- but keep it handy and dont be afraid to crank it up

Derek Hall wrote:

• 8:00 - 8:20 -- Predetermined lesson. Something applicable to everyone. [/*:m:1vsyxb0z]
  
• 8:35 - 8:55 -- Predetermined lesson. Something applicable to everyone.[/*:m:1vsyxb0z]

These time periods would include practice time. So the actual lesson would should be 5-10 minutes and practice time would 10-15 minutes.

I'm all for having a loose class here and there. But it just seems to me that we gotten away from using alot of drills that are good for blocking in basic movements and conditioning.

Take everything I say with a big grain of salt but I do think we should have some loose structure here and there. I like Derek's idea about bringing in drills and going over basic throws, and hold downs. I know I am supposedly one of those "advanced belts" but my foundation isn't that solid. Some of the basic stuff is still fairly new to me since most of my training happened in Japan and they only a handfull of stuff. Personally I would like to go over the envelope series again and the escapes from those positions. But like I said take everything I say with a big grain of salt.

I just look at a structure as a sort of base. Now, if I end up with a class filled with a bunch of yudansha, heck, I'll toss the "schedule" out the window and wing it. Those kind of sessions definitely generate some wonderful learning and surprising breakthroughs.

My main issue was getting to be a such-and-such degree black belt in judo and realizing I was responsible for teaching people and there was this material I didn't know. I spent a lot of time asking folks who knew better how to do things that I wondered if I shouldn't have seen already.

I don't mind structured class. I am lazy, I admit it. When it comes to the drills I need structure....it's the military in me. I always found it easier to run or do PT in formation than on my own. Only problem I have is the Judo push-ups...hard on my shoulders...but I muddle through them. As for a set lesson for say a week or two, I like the idea...there are some basic throws that I most definitely need to hone and taking more time on them before moving to others would help me alot. I like the loading up the throw part. It helps me see if I could actually do the throw if I can load him up or not. I'd personally like more escape work cause I really suck at them. I am always worried about my back so I tend to "pull" my escapes some and they fail. Alternatives to the common escapes (mostly from kesa gatame) would benefit me I think.....but that's just me.

Good discussion.

I think Judo class has lost some the structure from years past. I think some basic stretching and conditioning should be included at the beginning of each class. Not everyone does Aikido before Judo, so not everyone is going to be stretched out and warmed up. I also think the class tends to be a little uneven on the time spent on throwing and grappling. We'll spend 15-20 minutes on foot sweeps, 15-25 minutes on a throwing lesson, and then given what ever time until 8:30 to trade throws. That's all groovy, but then we only spend 30 minutes on a grappling lesson and getting a few reps. And we really don't get any time to roll around and get some free practice in.

After reading this, it sounds like I am bitching about a lot things and that is not how it is meant to come across. Just sayin'

Too late! You're bitching.... 😀

I never knew this was here.

This is more than a year late, but I like what Derek has to say, and what Sean has to say. If there are lot of very experienced people on the mat, just wing it. But when there is a preponderance of lower ranks (whatever that means), we can all benefit from movement drills, set lesson plans, etc. By rarely doing this we are selling short newer folk who have never experienced that part of judo. I did it for years, every single class, and so did you (Nick, Derek, Kyle, Sean). I can count on one hand the number nights that consisted of vigorous chest crawls, shrimps, bridging and rolling, etc. drills in the past year, and I can point to a few people and say "it's clear you've never really worked on your movement in a vigorous manner," or "You don't quite get why this is so useful."

Now, this is not to say the normal manner of class is bad. I've grown more as a judo player in literally every sense in the past year and it's all thanks to everyone at the dojo and how the classes are run: open, loose, dialogue driven. But, I also had the years of rote repetition to beat certain things into my muscle memory. A lot of people are missing out on that.

Sounds like it's time to cycle back into the good ole drill routine andget everybody cranked up

I've been doing 2-3 sets of shrimps and reverse shrimps after class for about a year now, and it seems like my escape work keeps getting better. I have not been doing chest crawls, and my choking does not seem to be improving nearly as well as my escapes. These drills seem very beneficial.

However, I also believe that conditioning and solo drills are something that must be done mostly outside of class time, because class time is precious. I learned how to do shrimps by doing them occasionally during class. I got good at it by doing them on my own.

Of course, some people can push themselves harder in a class setting than they can on there own. I'm happy either way.. I'll do them regardless.

Karl Wenzel wrote:I also believe that conditioning and solo drills are something that must be done mostly outside of class time, because class time is precious. I learned how to do shrimps by doing them occasionally during class. I got good at it by doing them on my own.

very nice!

I have to say ...

Reading the above gives me pause to consider. All things hav come before and like that.

I'll chill on my students comments on when/how things should be taught. Seems like it's an ongoing "bbattle," for lack of a more appropriate word.

Seems to me the students almost always want to drink from the fire-hose, while the instructor wishes to deliver the knowledge from a syringe to make sure they "get it" before moving on. Balancing act, I'm thinking.