Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Many years ago it was pointed out that Aikido as a "complete self defense system" had a notable gap in its scope -- namely --neiwaza (aka. groundwork). Subsequentaly, the excellent Okuda and Shirai methods of defensive ground waza were taught as a patch to provide coverage of this tactical gap.
In his latest book, Ellis Amdur observed, that by their own self report, both Ueshiba and Kano found Koshi waza to be thier tokui or favorite technique (tokui is not only the one they enjoyed the most but rather the one that they reflexed into most readily and naturally).
As far as I can tell , a few forms of nice Koshi waza are standard fare in the hombu world (though even here they seem less popular) but given that the Tomiki lineage has seemed to actively discouraged hip throws (probably to maintain a sense of distictiveness from judo in shiai) this too seem like an obvious gap in the program.
A little research and discussion of good koshiwaza may be in order.

nick lowry wrote:Many years ago it was pointed out that Aikido as a "complete self defense system" had a notable gap in its scope -- namely --neiwaza (aka. groundwork). Subsequentaly, the excellent Okuda and Shirai methods of defensive ground waza were taught as a patch to provide coverage of this tactical gap.
In his latest book, Ellis Amdur observed, that by their own self report, both Ueshiba and Kano found Koshi waza to be thier tokui or favorite technique (tokui is not only the one they enjoyed the most but rather the one that they reflexed into most readily and naturally).
As far as I can tell , a few forms of nice Koshi waza are standard fare in the hombu world (though even here they seem less popular) but given that the Tomiki lineage has seemed to actively discouraged hip throws (probably to maintain a sense of distictiveness from judo in shiai) this too seem like an obvious gap in the program.
A little research and discussion of good koshiwaza may be in order.

Interesting topic you have started here. I fully agree with you that all hip throws have been looked down upon. Every time I do one I get jumped on saying that I am changing the rules, or trying to fight. I really don't see it that way. I TRY to feel where my partner is going, and help him get almost there or just beyond where he is going. No matter where it leads, this is where usually I get called out for not fitting into the "definitions" they hold on what is aiki and not aiki. I realize that I have a limited scope on the application of a lot of the different principals of movement, but do try to adhere to what I think they are even to my detriment sometimes (especially with guys a bit larger than me, and twenty some years my senior on the ground 😂 ). I would love if you would share some of your thoughts and ramblings via short video clips if you have the time.
Jeff

I always considered that Tomiki would have thought if you want hip throws, do some judo, they have great koshi waza. I saw a quote of his that you do judo when the opponents legs are in range, you do aikido when they are not. Aikido is one end of the jujutsu spectrum and aikido is the other.

When I first practiced o-goshi, I was a nidan in Aikido. I did a Judo class in the morning, then Aikido. Afterwards, I was hanging around outside the rec center doing aikido randori with one of my students, and I found myself doing koshinage, aikido style, without ever having practiced it. I was able to get it repeatedly with aikido extension of kuzushi into the throw. This indicated to me that the arts at least have considerable overlap.

I think myself and a few others have noticed the same thing. If I'm engaged in either randori or renzoku waza (chained series) with another aikidoka who also studies judo, we'll find ourselves slipping into a judo throw occasionally without ever intending to do so. Something in our subconscious mind evidently recognized the situation and took over, and I suspect it has quite a bit to do with the relationship or spacing Jack mentioned.

I guess the issue then becomes a matter of whether to introduce koshi waza into aikido for those who either don't wish to do judo or are physically less able to (judo can be a little more physically demanding), or simply maintain that if you want to learn it, you have to sign up for judo? Presumably, we teach the striped-down, "pure self defense" groundwork in aikido for the benefit of those don't want to do judo, so should koshi waza be treated similarly?

I try to make the point that aikinage (or iriminage) can be the same thing as koshinage. As Jack mentioned, if you practice aikinage 1000 times, some certain percent it will feel like koshinage. That's one of those techniques that is encompassed by the kata but it is fleshed out in randori.

If someone wants to throw me in aiki randori with koshinage, theyre welcome to, but they'd better get it right and watch out for shomenate 😉

one of the better koshi aiki forms i've run across is the last waza from Kogure's double hand release form -- rising inside wrist catch on one side(think hand like makiotoshi in jyodo here-- the JAA folks also use this raising catch in the tail end of yonkata too) and overwrap on the other low hand as you rotate to what amounts to a nice sodetsurikomigoshi but with wrist control insted of sleeve-- throw as hip or as an air throw -- pretty sweet deal

I am typing awfully early in the morning so I might have missed the point of this thread but....

I have some old seminar tapes of Chuck and Aaron Clark circa mid 1990s. They did the whole seminar on koshi waza. They did the releases motions into koshi waza (which are quite beautiful). Then there was like an ogoshi in motion. I will try to dig up the tape for when I come up to Oklahoma.

cool -- i'd love to see any of the jyushinkai material -- i have yet to lay eyes on any so far