Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

Pride and Ego during training.

This topic has been prompted by my sore neck this rainy Sunday morning. My neck is somewhat stiff, which usually means I got neck cranked pretty good, and it kind of hurts to swallow, which usually means some one didn’t know where their elbow was and proceeded to squeeze and strangle me instead of choking me (big difference), or they decided to put all their weight on my neck to establish head control. Now who is to blame here? I can’t say those are bad techniques because they work. But, I don’t believe it is kosher to use them during a polite practice. I can also their side and say hey, “If it hurts tap out”. Let me follow that by saying making a guy tap by submission is one thing, but making him tap because you are inflecting so much pain is another. So who is to blame? Is anyone to blame?

I believe both parties are to blame. I’m to blame because I should tap when it hurts and move on. Their guilty of using “dirty tactics” in my book, and that is why I probably don’t tap and work through it. I’ve had this silly thought, that if I don’t tap and get away from this guy that he will see that it doesn’t work and stop using it. WRONG. It is interpreted as successful because it made me do something/or move somewhere I didn’t want to go. Sorry jack, but strangles, knuckles in the ribs, chin in the ribs, chin in the sternum/driving the head into the throat, not cool, and tends to have adverse effect on your partner’s mood. What prompts this type of behavior? We are all guilty of using some form of dirty trick time to time.

I was talking with my dad yesterday about this and it sounded like to him that there is a lot of pride in the room. I explained to him that we are all humble players and are excellent about leaving our egos in our shoes. And his response was, okay but about what your pride?

So even though we are leaving our egos off the mat, are we leaving our pride there too? I can say that I don’t. I know that in either class, Aikido and Judo, I have caught myself, at time, determined to win. Not because I have a big ego or am arrogant about being superior. It is a matter of pride. I think some of it has to do with how others perceive us. I have used this example before. I think of myself as a fair grappler, but everyone else gives me this label of being a bada$$ dude on the ground. So the lower ranks want to try to prove themselves and go full tilt with me, and I think some higher ranks feel the need to show me that I’m not as good as I think I am by escaping/submitting by any means. None of this is an ego thing. It is a pride thing.

So I say we all leave our egos in our shoes, swallow our pride, save the dirty tricks for the street and have a good time.

Nice article. I would agree that we're all guilty of letting pride and/or ego creep onto the mat with us.

What are we trying to prove, versus what are we trying to learn?

Everybody has something to offer. Everybody. Each person, from the beginner all the way up to us red & white belts, has something to offer.

We often get involved in ego or pride games, and it usually involves some form of proving something to someone -- ourselves or our partner. Phooey.

If you must prove something, prove to yourself that you can "lose" and do it so much that you no longer care about the whole "win/lose" paradigm.

I try really hard not to play the win/lose game. But when I'm letting people pass or escape to let the learning process continue and they turn around and want to crank on me, well I'm not so inclined to let them work on their stuff any more. And will usually just tie them up, wear them out, and send them on their way when the bell rings. Which sucks, because neither one of us has learned anything. Same thing in hop randori, uke wants to play stiff armed and block all my stuff. That's cool, good luck when the roles are reversed. I hate having this attitude about things, but I guess it is just facts of life.

One pet peeve of mine are those guys that are always saying lets slow down, lets take it slow today, or you guys sure are working hard. Then the first time I get a solid control, it is game on like Donkey Kong.

Which brings up another topic, what’s the difference between solid and strong? To me solid is having something that is efficient and strong without using a lot of your own strength to maintain it. Strong on the other hand requires a lot of your own strength to maintain and is not very efficient. Both seem to get the same response from your partner. They give it everything they have to get free. But if you were using strength to maintain then both will be exhausted at the end. Where as the one with a “solid” hold will stiff be able to continue while his partner is exhausted. People often misinterpret these and thus change the rules by which the two are playing by. Just because something is solid, does not mean there is a lot of strength involved.

Derek Hall wrote:I try really hard not to play the win/lose game. But when I'm letting people pass or escape to let the learning process continue and they turn around and want to crank on me, well I'm not so inclined to let them work on their stuff any more.

Sounds like there is still a lesson being transmitted. Budo is not all about waza.

Jack Bieler wrote:

Derek Hall wrote:I try really hard not to play the win/lose game. But when I'm letting people pass or escape to let the learning process continue and they turn around and want to crank on me, well I'm not so inclined to let them work on their stuff any more.

Sounds like there is still a lesson being transmitted. Budo is not all about waza.

While a lesson is being transmitted, often people don't receive the message. Ego/pride really messes with the signal-to-noise ratio.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or get you all riled up here, so don't take it that way, but I have a couple honest questions.

One, if your the higher belt in the relationship, you should be the leader in that relationship right? Even if only for 3 minutes. So, if the lower belt is acting in a way you don't like, shouldn't you just say something like..."Matte. Okay, settle down chief. Let's reset and go a little slower. That whole choke thing you were doing doesn't work for me. And here's why..." Then explain it.

Isn't that your responsibility in the relationship when working with a lower belt?

I know people tend to react to good communication, it may be that because they are the lower belt they are just inexperienced, not trying to behave badly on purpose. Not trying to show you up or prove anything against you.

I know in one of your other posts you said:

Because like we always say, the lower rank sets the pace.

But I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it is the responsiblity of the higher belt to be the leader in the relationship and if the lower belt is doing something un-kosher, then tell them. In a nice respectful way. If it continues to be a problem after you have talked to them a time or two, then I would speak to a higher belt, about the issues. Maybe have a sit-down with that person and discuss the issue in a 3-way talk scenario where there is a moderator. But again, I don't know if we have anybody in the dojo currently that it would need to be taken that far. I think the people we currently work with are very mature and would respond well to the first time explanation. Again, to me it seems like it may be an issue in ignorance, not intended malice by the lower belts.

It could also be, that because your young...most of the lower belts are young...and we are guys...maybe they just like to take out some aggression and "wrestle!" a little bit in what they consider a "safe environment." An environment where they know they can be "excitable" and no one will lose their cool. That said, again, I believe if the higher belt becomes uncomfortable with the situation it is there responsibility to call a time out, explain the situation and reset.

Derek Hall wrote:I think some higher ranks feel the need to show me that I’m not as good as I think I am by escaping/submitting by any means.

As for that situation, I can't speak to it. But you did say this in your other post.

The yudansha is playing technically strong, thus giving the lower rank problems to figure out. So they are playing at a higher level, forcing the lower rank to develop their skills and become better. To compensate the kyu grade usually ups there intensity. Now we get into a downward spiral.

Is it possible your misunderstanding their intentions?

Also, I think even as a lower belt, if the higher belt is playing too rough, you still have a responsibility to say "time out". Explain why you said that and reset.

Strip the belts away, and we are just people after all. No one person any better than the other. That is what I thought was interesting about the Gracie mini-clinic. Did anybody else catch that? We all wore t-shirts. No gi's, no belts, no ranks. We were all just people, just working. It took the whole ego/pride thing out of equation. I don't think it was conincidence, I think it was by design. You could argue, well all of us there were white belts in Jits anyway..so that's all that was about. I don't buy that argument. I think it was by design. He knows there were black belts in that room. But for him to teach effectively, for everyone to work effectively like he wanted...he kind of did the military thing...shaved our heads. Made us all equal. (This was just a side note I've been thinking about for a while, maybe not relevant to this discussion, but anyway...I put it here.)

I'll close this out by saying, I think people have a lot of respect for your skills both standing and on the ground Derek. I haven't heard anybody, anybody, saying anything to the effect of "You know, I think I'm gonna go hard against that Derek guy. I'll show him." The exact opposite, I think people like you (@ least the lower belts 😉 --- and excluding me of course...sorry dude...I'm just to pretty to like you...no offense) and honestly want to learn from you. So again, if there is a lower belt going harder than you like or working in a manner you think is un-conducive to learning, just call a time out. Explain the situation nicely. Reset. And start over.

Just the way I see things.....

I now feel bad for starting this topic. I have upset Sensei, and that was not my intention, nor desire.
Sensei's thoughts

Damon Kornele wrote:One, if your the higher belt in the relationship, you should be the leader in that relationship right? Even if only for 3 minutes. So, if the lower belt is acting in a way you don't like, shouldn't you just say something like..."Matte. Okay, settle down chief. Let's reset and go a little slower. That whole choke thing you were doing doesn't work for me. And here's why..." Then explain it.

Isn't that your responsibility in the relationship when working with a lower belt?

Agree, and I accept that responsiblity.

Damon Kornele wrote:It could also be, that because your young...most of the lower belts are young...and we are guys...maybe they just like to take out some aggression and "wrestle!" a little bit in what they consider a "safe environment."

I agree with you on this one too. And that is all cool as long as both partners know the ground rules. For example, Chris and I were talking Saturday morning about working on some half-guard stuff that may involve leg locks. Since we are both responsible players and we have talked before hand on the conditions of our play, everything is cool.

Damon Kornele wrote:he yudansha is playing technically strong, thus giving the lower rank problems to figure out. So they are playing at a higher level, forcing the lower rank to develop their skills and become better. To compensate the kyu grade usually ups there intensity. Now we get into a downward spiral.

Is it possible your misunderstanding their intentions?

It is pretty obvious to me the difference between getting caught with solid technique and being crushed.

Damon Kornele wrote:Also, I think even as a lower belt, if the higher belt is playing too rough, you still have a responsibility to say "time out". Explain why you said that and reset.

Easier said than done. I find it hard to “confront” other players, especially those who have been around longer than I have. Maybe this is just something I need to work on, but I don’t want to be disrespectful to anyone.

I want to teach you how to throw, and how to hold folks down, and how to take very high degrees of control over other people -- should you ever have to. I want to foster a deeply rooted self-confidence in you, so that when faced with a tough go of things (be that a confrontation in a dark parking lot, a classroom or the board room), you are steeled in your ability to face adversity and triumph over it.

As a teacher (sempai) I like to play folks as a comparable skill level. For example, if my partner is a sankyu then I should play him as a nikyu, possibly an ikkyu. I want to challenge him to grow, but I don't want to make it impossible for them to succeed. Without a challenge, both of us will go stale and get sloppy. The challenge is what forces us to watch those little details, to not be sloppy and lazy. I want to coach him, help him develop, show him his vulnerabilities and my vulnerabilities. If any of you guys think coaching doesn't help improve your game, come visit with me.

As sempai, I frequently let kohai set the pace & lesson plan. However this does not mean my partner can just run willy-nilly and go godzilla on me, just because he's a lower rank and feels like it. When this happens, it's time to take a time out, review the ground rules for good behavior, and try again.

When I say I let them set the pace, people learn at different rates in different ways. I have to be able to tell if you learn by audio, visual, repetition, kinesthetic/feel or some combination. I have to feed you information at a rate where you can absorb it, process it and internalize it.

There are some folks who understand the mechanics of armbars and need to focus on chokes. There are some folks who have trouble escaping from a particular hold. As a teacher, I want them to have the tools to succeed, to improve, to gain confidence. Whatever your question is, I want to be a resource for your learning and continued growth. I'm pretty sure most other black belts feel the same way.

Now that I've covered a lot of sempai let's talk about kohai for a minute. Your obligation is to try to do the lesson that's set forth by whomever is instructing. Don't be giving your partner the, "Kyle says do it this way and that's not what you said," stuff. There's a lot of folks with a lot to offer, and some of them do it way better than I do. If you have questions, ask. If you are not enjoying success, ask your partner to lighten up a little so you can have success. If you feel you are being treated unfairly or abused, come see me.

As Derek pointed out, there are things outside the normal curriculum that partners might review with each other. This is fine so long as both people have have discussed it ahead of time & agreed to it, and secured the blessings of whomever is running the floor as well. Leg locks, sutemi waza (sacrifice throws), crazy stuff like tani-otoshi, etc. So long as everybody knows what the game plan is, everybody should be able to get along. And, if that means you want to see if you can have rodeo Judo with me, just let me know ahead of time. I might be feeling good that night and let you see if you can manage 8 seconds. 😂


Again, let's get back to the business of teaching and learning. If you gotta play "beat", then I suggest you "beat it" to a place that caters to that sort of behavior.

Derek Hall wrote:Agree

Derek Hall wrote:I agree with you on this one too.

Do that more often and you'll be wearing jewels. I'm right most of the time (98.8%). Regardless of subject. My percentage is currently lower than normal because of my prediction at the beginning of the year that OU would in fact beat Miami in Miami. At the time of that prediction I did not anticipate Bradford, Gresham and Broyles being out. That's no excuse though. I was still wrong and accept that. My percentage (98.8%) is what it is.

Kyle Sloan wrote:
If you are not enjoying success, ask your partner to lighten up a little so you can have success. If you feel you are being treated unfairly or abused, come see me.

I am guilty of this exact same thing. This issue came up a couple weeks back. Basic kesa gatame from a white belt holding me but he had me really good. He was way bigger than me and I couldn't move him. Couldn't turn my head either direction. Should have told him to loosen up a bit instead of getting frustrated and flailing underneath him. I asked Kyle about this after class and he let the guy hold him. He turned into the guy like normal to break his posture and yanked his arm away from uke to create space. Since uke was holding it so tight...it wound up ripping his finger nail and making him bleed. It wasn't bad but it happened. I always worry about this sort of thing when my technique doesn't work. I don't want to get strong and hurt uke or worse myself trying to escape. The window of my ability was too closed and I couldn't do it. That was on me to tell the guy to loosen up a bit.

Since he was a white belt, I'm not sure if this applies to him yet. Isn't it also uke's responsibility to know that if he is holding something that strong that he is in effect giving tori no other choice than to up the game also? Not saying I still could have moved him....:O) There seems to be a bit of gray area here.

I totally agree with everything that has been said and apologize if I have perpetrated any of the above on anyone. I think that I, like others can get caught up in the moment and lose track of the possible pain that one can inflict on another.Communication is always open and if anyone needs to be tempered down or slowed down for whatever reason I and anyone else should be respectful of that request.I appreciate all the people I train with and would never want to hurt anyone. The most important resource to all of our training is our health and safety and that should be our foremost focus in all of our practices. This is why I have continued at Windsong training with the most careful and respectful people I have met in the city for over 10 years.I do not want any miscommunication or lack thereof to become an obstacle to our awesome environment of trust and fellowship.I hope this is just the start of our open communication and mutual respect and growth.