i had a similar impression about the walk-- that it was Miyake's-- but it seem more likely that our particular type of walk was mostly Tomiki's walk circa mid sixties( see Yamada video on youtube) and is related to Miyake's style or interpretation particualrly in the latter half of the form --thinking here of "polishing the mirror" which is has a distinctive tai chi feel -- owaza and double hand release form and the Crazy Kata are all from Kogure in the 70's as far as i can tell -- as i dig, some other interesting forms/exercises are cropping up as well -- ichi an ni koryu of course (Obha probably had a hand in here) but also the old dynamic 14 (another release series that Tanaka got from his time at Waseda with Tomiki) the ura waza stuff (randori counters--probaly Obha influenced as well) and the newer goshin ho set (developed by Shishida and Nariyama) --
Hi All:
My first post while coming out of lurker mode. Must say I've enjoyed watching the banter and info flow back and forth. <> Was reading the flow on the history/development of kata and thought I'd throw in what I remember; assuming my part-timers hasn't gotten too terribly bad today.
There is a Yamada video on YouTube dated 1959 in which a very young Yamada does the walking kata/set and the form he uses is about 99% exactly what I was taught in 1975. The only difference is the last movement that KG changed to "polish the mirror" and the absence of what many people now call "pet the tiger" which originally wasn't part of the walking ( it seemed to create itself later).
The original form of the "polish the mirror" more closely resembled ude furi undo by opening the feet to the back corner and using both hands in a circular "brush-off" movement. I also was told many times that Miyake was the prime source for the walking and at a seminar she once told me and a small group of players that at Waseda they used to practice it to music in order to get a feel for the correct rhythm and moving on the beat to a body drop/rise. One of the biggest issues with the walking that I have to speak to frequently at my dojo is that many players simply, "Ain't go no rhythm!"; an important issue when developing kinesthestic self-awareness and critical IMHO in developing the ability to work body rise/fall on uke.
I know from conversations with Lynne Geis and Betina Shackleford (during their Sunday sunrise judo classes) many years ago that Kogure developed the Double Releases and what later became known as Krazy Kata; Double Releases being formulated to try to teach Aikido principles and hand movements to Judo players who were unable to mentally break out of tape-fights and shiai-mode and understand how to make Aikido play with foot/hara movement (and not brute force).....while the Krazy Kata was apparently a response to Kogure having gone to a big Karate/MA exposition in Houston and seeing the flying sidekicks thru' the flaming hoops and the watermelon samurai-slice with the big katana (and the best one I ever saw, the infamous "set the bricks on fire and break them with your elbow while you set your own hair on fire too and then run around the stage kiai'ng/screaming) decided that he needed something to showcase in public; ergo the KK, most appropriately done with lots of loud kiai and most fun to do. (I saw an earlier comment on the KK that KG dropped it for being too dangerous. He dropped it because he apparently thought it silly and not dignified and not necessary even tho' Lynne Geis used to always let us practice it when KG was out of town. Like so much of MA, it's only dangerous if you practice incorrectly and make it so.)
I was also led to believe that Miyake had a more than large hand in the Big 10 although this info was not given to me as definitive. I don't know with any certainty as to whether or not Kogure worked on this but I definitely remember players in the mid-70's who had trained under Kogure stating that it was a part of the normal classes so it may have come to Houston with Kogure by way of Waseda meaning that more than one person could have had a hand in it (Tomiki, Ohba, Miyake, Inoue, Kogure since it definitely has a strong Judo flavor to it with the guruma's orginally being done without much if any foot movement and more over the hip, the excessive foot movement being added by KG....plus the first waza/guruma being thrown with a shomanate to the side of the head, later changed to hooking behind the head).
It's doubtful that Yamada or the European groups at the time knew it (Big 10) until later as I have never seen nor read any reference to the Big 10 in England in the early years and find it interesting that Loi failed to drop it into her books. I'd be interested if anyone had any info on this particular area esp. since we know that Miyake was one of Loi's first teachers making seminar trips to England as she did to the US.)
One other story I was told in the early years was that after Tomiki died and Ohba took over (we've all heard the Ohba funeral quote at which he said, "Mr. Tomiki believed in this (hand in push-position) but I believe in this (hand in knife edge/chopping position)", that Ohba proceeded to make wholesale changes in the paradigmatic view by initially dropping anything that Miyake/KG/Inoue had any part of which of course has now led to the Nariyama paradigm.
Since I wasn't in Japan at the time I can't state that this as black/white but if one considers the tendency of "Young Turks" to take over and want to "make their mark" then it makes a little common sense that Ohba and later Nariyama would desire to do a little "re-design" work in order to own the system.
Hopefully I haven't bored anyone but I thought I'd throw in what I remember at the moment. If anything else comes to me I'll do a later post. I've recently picked up a new student who trained in the late 60's/early 70's as a teenager under Kogure so I may be able to discern some other thoughts and if so I'll add them to this discussion.
We enjoyed the OKC contingent that came down earlier this year and although I can't make the Dec. event in OKC Lynn and I and possibly some others may try to make one next year. Our work schedule at year end is simply too hectic. When we get up there it'll be good to see some folks that I haven't had contact with in over a decade (my oh my how time flies).
Best to all.
L.F. Wilkinson
Almost forgot................
The Dynamic 14 mentioned earlier I think is actually the Dynamic 11 but I'll have to dig in my garage to check on that as I have a list of the waza somewhere (even tho' I haven't done them in about two lifetimes).
I'll share if I can find the list but when given the information many moons ago I was told that Tomiki used the Dynamic 11? 14? as his personal warm-up with his uke as they are expanded forms of the 8 releases and all are terminated (uke is thrown).
I have yet to find a web-video showing the Dynamic 11? 14? but there are some clips that show pieces here and there.
Ciao,
L.F. Wilkinson
Sorry to miss you this year -- Are you all having another Aikibudokan event comming up?
Really fascinating stuff on the walk -- now i wonder more about the pet the tigerstuff-- the more i dig the more i find to keep diggin on -- i have a video of Nettles (JAA) teaching the Dynamic whatever it is (11/14) and it is as you say releases done big with kake at the end and some varients -- should be easy to do a little demo of it for our youtube fans -- the owaza background info i got was from contact with Ray and Yoji Kondo who are still in association with Kogure
Hi Nick:
Wrapping it up for the day having been "not real productive" at the office.
If you have a Nettles tape would love to see the material and maybe go back and do a little Dynamic "#?" just to recapture it for the view and retain it for the future.
Here's the link for the walking. It's more "jumpy" (takes me back and makes me feel old). Notice the BIG hand "swoops" for the first section of hand movements and when he gets to the part of the "pet the tiger" the second hand stays still and the moving hand does not have the fancy swirls and curves that many players do today. At a seminar years ago my original Sensei (Gillanders, now deceased) taught the "pet the tiger" with all sorts of interesting but repetitive hand movements like "cup his bottom and stroke his tail" (she was very descriptive). We went to a seminar and Lynne Geis noticed how she was doing the walking and the end result of the conversation was Lynne stating that there was no such thing as "pet the tiger" and that Gillanders had misunderstood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-RNsy1 ... re=relatedtoo cool --
heres a quik overview of the Nettles material from 1999 tulsa clinic--
Dynamic 11—old tomiki kata warm up from Waseda
1- is #1 release push through the ear to extension as in yonkata
2- - is #3 release “ “ “ “
3- is #5 release long forward extension under arm draw around to shomenate
4- is #7 release “ “ “ extra drop and rise into to gedanate
5- #6 release throw back fall on the move
6- #8 release throw back fall on the move
7- both wrists grasp hands split on the step for tenchi nage(heaven and earth)
8- same as previous -- pivot to coil into sode tsuri grips (as in #16 of Kogure’s Double hand releases)-air throw
9- right hand grasp uke is attempting to grasp left from behind – target disappears as tori pivots under as in #5 release and extension – similar to #24 of yonkata (outside turn to kneeling extension)
10- double hand grasp to right wrist- piviot 180 and jodan kuzushi as in yonkata#1/#2 (same rising coil effect ) forward extension to air fall (like a sword cut)
11- attempt previous but uke resists extension and tori makes maeotoshi air throw with second hand