Kaze Uta Budo Kai Forum Archive

i was given a copy of Senta Yamada's early Tomiki book this past week and discovered that my simplistic understanding of eary Tomiki kata was in error -- in Yamada's book i found Tomiki's original 15 --the prototypical randori kata which i had always thought of as 15 of the waza of the 17 minus 2-- what i found was quite different.

we see in the 15 form for atemi waza: shomenate,gyakugameate,aigameate
in hiji waza 😲shi-taoshi, hiki taoshi, ude gaeshi, ude hineri
in tekubi waza: kote hineri, tenki koteheneri, kote mawashi from oshitaoshi position and kote mawashi from hiki taoshi position (these were all considered varients of kote hineri) and
kotegaeshi (cross grip), kote gaeshi (mirror grip), shihonage (crossgrip), shihonage (mirror grip ) (all considered forms of kotegaeshi.
no uki waza section

so when compared to the 17, what we dont find are:
gedan ate
ushiro ate
wakigatame
mae otoshi
sumi otoshi
hiki otoshi

some points of interest
* the gakugameate in the 15 is very intersting in that it enters in a mirrror form and lets me see more clearly how the shodokan style of gedanate developed--
* i was suprised not so see any ushiro ate or variant
* no linkage between ude gaeshi and oshitaoshi or between kotehineri and kotegaeshi -- though we do see ude hineri beginning with hikitaoshi
*obviously waki gatmae in the 17 preserves the gripping conditions of the lost kote mawashi material
* the catagoization of wrist techniques by hand grip (initial position of griping--cross or mirror) that i had taken to have been a much later development by fugakukai is in fact original Tomiki work -- alternating one handed balance breaks go way back--which makes me question the origin of the two handed forms that i was brought up with in the 17 -- more research required....
*uki waza -- the "floating" techniques and the thinking behind them require more research-- I'm begining to wonder if the uki waza just serves as an "exploded view" of shihonage, which has always been classically rendered as "4 direction throw" which never made real sense if we take "directions" to mean the line of the kake--but if we take direction to mean different pathways leading to differernt conclusiuons, we get four-shihonage, maeotoshi, sumiotoshi, hikiotoshi-- not saying this is right but maybe....

What i can say for sure is that to get to the 17 from the 15, Tomiki had to collapse the four kotegaeshi and four kote hineri forms into two each and then make wakigatame do the two mawashi jobs, extract gedan ate from gyakugameate, add ushiroate, and all uki waza (maeotoshi, smiotoshi, hikiotoshi)

My impression, based on analysis and comments by teachers in the early history of my training, was that the two hand balance breaks and grips (e.g. kotegaeshi) were designed so you did not have to train two different methods for each technique. One kata taught either hand the positions. This allowed the eight possible combinations of wristlocks to be condensed into four, and control the size of the expanded randori no kata (adding kokyunage in the form of the ukiwaza).

The two-hand balance breaks fell into disfavor because of the negative skills transfer when that habit becomes applied to randori, where two hands in one place is a problem. This is probably from spending too much time on the prototypical kata and not enough time developing past the introductory form, especially in early training.

I have always been uncomfortable with the 23 because the variations, especially in the case of sumiotoshi, muddy the elemental uniqueness of the fundamental techniques. Knowing that you can do ushiro-ate or tai-guruma from a failure of sumiotoshi is valid, but it is a randori progression, not a form of sumiotoshi any more. The two wakigatame simply break a two-handed teaching form into two variations. The two shihonage are valuable and necessary to know, but the distinction between the throw and the bail-out is not inevitable. Just for purity, these randori training issues might be better handled in chains, rather than adding syllables to the alphabet.

too cool jack -- i had not made the connection between kokyunage and uki waza-- i too feel that the henka clutter up the 17 and have recently begun to frame all my new exploratory work with balance break off the 17 rather than the 23 since the uki waza varients in particualr becme unweildy-- though te second form of waki still works nicely
it was striking to me to realize that the mirror/cross distiction was a defining characteristic in the old 15 kata since i had come to assocate it with the 23 form--

completed review of all blogs by nev sagiba and aikido book by crane-- now set to start re-reading uno kenshi and nariyama, yamada and loi, saunders two volumes and allbright's "aikido and randori"-- also should reread tomiki "judo and aikido" -- and misc. tomiki articles published online

also have been reviewing all tomiki video material from 1950's forward -- looking at walking and randori kata with an eye toward issues of "sen" "irimi and tenkan" also kuzushi and release varitions -- like to do more research on ichi and ni in the koryu and on nariyama/shishida's goshin kata plus the old kuzushi kata (?) and kogure's crazy kata-- looking forward to spending a little time with friends next month who are well versed in a bit of this so that should be helpful

also like to refresh my "merrit system" work and consult with Moe

also planning to continue my exploration of hazumi an ikioi

and contiue to work on a pan-aikido-system grid of terminolgy (note:#5 and #10 of owaza ju pon appear to be mis-named #5 should be IRIMI-NAGE and #10 should be AIKINAGE -- )

focusing alot this past two weeks on some nice variation in release forms and the first seven of yon kata which in the the jaa world seem to be their form of releases-- examining the jodan/chudan/gedan paradigm and the mirror to the rising up forms, also pet the dragon chudan form with irimi-nage and nice link to gedante from turn under action

also verycool stuf on the gyakugameate from the 15 and gassho-no-kame as a wedge (ditto arms) neat details on isometrics in gedanate
eyethreat version of ushiro followed up with deep entry for choke
side break kuzushi on oshi and kote geashi
kotemawashi forms from the 15
the hineri/gaeshi paradigm in the 15 and 17
the link between tenkai kotehineri and sumiotoshi in the development of the uki waza
sweet kotemawashi variation in san kata
interesting varitions in uke function for higher katas with lots of effect on all the weapons sections of san kata and very intersting latter half yon kata varitations with parrallels to koshiki at 15/16 and use of yonkyo wrist function

also got to view and review notes on kuzushi no kata and two lost techniques from an older form of yonkata--kogure's doulbel release form and the Krazy kata--

Sounds very cool. I just wish I knew what the heck you were talking about! 😢

nick lowry wrote:focusing alot this past two weeks on some nice variation in release forms and the first seven of yon kata which in the the jaa world seem to be their form of releases-- examining the jodan/chudan/gedan paradigm and the mirror to the rising up forms, also pet the dragon chudan form with irimi-nage and nice link to gedanate from turn under action

I never found a satisfying application for the "pet the dragon" variation of stepping straight forward with the arm curved horizontally. It always seemed like presenting the elbow for disaster, although I can almost see gedanate there. This step was originally called "inside outside turn". The first movement is pretty explicitly the iriminage throw, and the original way I was taught had us turning 90 degrees inward exactly as done in owaza, throwing with the inside of the curved arm. The second part is gyakugamae-ate, throwing with the outside convex curve.

hi sean -- hit me up next time you see me -- i'll do some show and tell

hi jack -- yep -- the one i ran into uses the tenkan form from cross hand grab-- back foot entering as in owaza-- hand rotating to palm up -- functions like a shortcut to #1 release that simultaneously sets up nice iriminage position --

I have to agree with Sean, I am lima lima mike foxtrot (LLMF). Lost like a (you get the idea). Nick, I have been following your and Jack's conversation and was wondering, trying to read between the lines, are you considering going back to 17 instead of 23 or is it too early to tell, or am I reading too much into this. Just curious.

i think the 17 is more central as a model and the 23 is really just an interpretation of the 17 with some varitations and modified balance break -- i am not advocating either as "standard kata" --both versions do nicely to demonstrate principles (as do quite alot of other interpretations as well) -- currently i am exploring a wide range of historical diversity of application and it way too early for me to theorize some idea of standardization or make some pronouncment on preferences in general -- in the mean time, whatever paradigm of kata suits you and your school, as long as it embodies good principle, is dandy by me-- hope this helps clarify

nick lowry wrote:hi sean -- hit me up next time you see me -- i'll do some show and tell

Well, now, in order for that to happen, you'll need to drop in the morning classes sometime! 😉

next time i'm inexplicably awake at such an hour you got it

Of course, you also have to option of dissemination. Not too long ago, I believe, you shared some new fun stuff in noon class, which Señior Scott Weaver brought and showed to the morning class. Fun stuff. That's the nice thing about a dojo with so many accomplished players who can "spread the gospel" so to speak. I don't wanna put too much burden on you 😄

Jack Bieler wrote:

nick lowry wrote:focusing alot this past two weeks on some nice variation in release forms and the first seven of yon kata which in the the jaa world seem to be their form of releases-- examining the jodan/chudan/gedan paradigm and the mirror to the rising up forms, also pet the dragon chudan form with irimi-nage and nice link to gedanate from turn under action

I never found a satisfying application for the "pet the dragon" variation of stepping straight forward with the arm curved horizontally. It always seemed like presenting the elbow for disaster, although I can almost see gedanate there. This step was originally called "inside outside turn". The first movement is pretty explicitly the iriminage throw, and the original way I was taught had us turning 90 degrees inward exactly as done in owaza, throwing with the inside of the curved arm. The second part is gyakugamae-ate, throwing with the outside convex curve.

Sorry to Necro a dead Thread!!! I just found this and would like to bump an idea on this.. For the past year on and off I have been looking at the ashi waza, and release kata variations from a different perspective... I had a lot of Kick punch flowing back through my head and was playing with it while it was there... with it subsiding again Newer things are opening up to me you probably experienced already....
I have only found one close to satisfying application for "pet the dragon". It is from a collar grab, your step helps create an off balance, the curved arm goes across the eyes/face, so they will push either into you or straight back and the turn catches a sumiotoshi with the back side of your wrist, your hand bent keeps his arm locked in..
when I get a chance to lay hands with you guys I would appreciate you letting me feel what corners you feel in this one..

In the san kata, one of the ushiro ates in tanto dori is almost perfectly the pet the dragon motion.

found out this week that Kogure was indeed the source of the Big Ten--
am still seeking clarification on nomenclature in that kata (odd name of #5)

looking alot at goshinjutsu and its parallels in earlier 17 applications leading to really intertsting insights about uki otoshi and sumiotoshi and the function of balance break

also cool stuff on vertical balance breaks (narrow evasion=upward vector shearing like aiuchi)

also interesting theories as to the origins of some of the central chain ideas (earlier work of Wright sensei seems seminal also seeing a possible connection to Shishida and Nariyama's goshin-ho work)

looking toward a wide range historial survey of all the varitions on walking kata from the early 50's forward

I never found a satisfying application for the "pet the dragon" variation of stepping straight forward with the arm curved horizontally

just noted a this turning up in variation of balance brake for the old inside butterfly to Shihonage etc. as well-- mirror hand feed begins in the this posture

For myself I have alway cosidered that each of the Kata has a theme
Dai Ichi, I feel is the one that is designed to encourages those who have developing a deeper interest in aikido other than contest.
Dai Ni, is the one which encourages greater application of the use of hip power.
Dai San, or the Go Shin Ho kata, speaks for itself in so much that it is considered to be the Self defence kata.
Dai Yon, may I suggests, also called the Tachi no kata is in fact an action and reaction kata. If this kata is practiced first on the right and then on the left I feel it begins to make greater sence. Also, if each technique is followed by its raction there should be 26 techniques rather than the 25. I demonstrated what I considered was the missing technique in the third section of the kata in Japan at the Imabari event. I also place the last three techniques along with what I suggest is the possible missing technique in a different order of application. This is only if one agrees that each of the techniques is followed by a reaction technique.
The dai Go and dai Roku are katas that are meant to show a greater understanding of all that has gone before, both in speed and timing.
John Waite Kikusai kai

Interesting! It reflects a good understanding of the Kito-ryu (起倒流) principle of paired techniques.
According to Wikipedia:

Kitō Ryū is translated as "the school of the rise and fall."

Also from wiki:

Although koshiki-no-kata is not often seen in the United States, it is still taught and practiced in Japan. Some striking demonstrations of it from the 1950s can be seen in the film "Classic Judo Kata," by Hal Sharp. If the description of the kata in that film is correct, it would be the only judo kata that involves attacking the cervical spine.

I must concur completley with L.F. How can anyone learn or practice Aikido without having the walking, releases and the Owaza Ju Pon as the MOST CENTRAL PART of their training program. I have been a law enforcement training officer since 1978 and these three katas are the only thing I teach and I have had literally dozens of those officers come back and tell me that the things they learned from the Tomiki system saved their lives. Someone in class last week implied that I "was there" (meaning that I had mastered they Tomiki system) and I told them something similar to what L.F. : "I am still a student and I work on these basics everyday".

When people ask me to work with them on Judo and Aikido I show them the walking and releases. When law enforcement ask me to work with them on weapon retention for pistols, shotguns and rifles I show them the walking and releases. If there is no foundation nothing else will stand.

So L.F. thank you for bringing some critical questions to the table and bringing up some very important points.

nick lowry wrote:found out this week that Kogure was indeed the source of the Big Ten...

I thought this whole thread was really interesting, but this piqued my interest in particular. I'd always thought that owaza was a Miyake thing - I don't know my source for that, but I've spent a lot of time talking to Mac and Henry over the years and they didn't seem to disabuse me of that idea.

I saw a few years back that some of the JAA guys were teaching owaza in their syllabi, but it seems really rare to see owaza in the ohba/nariyama lineage.

p